Jordan Rescued

[Guest Rocket]

I disagree - the tone of a lot of this thread was oh well you had a crack, insurance will pay, and everyone lives to have another crack. Mix that in with a bit of youthful over exuberance and you might see why it pissed a few off.

 

Then put it in the context of that other thread where the takeaway was "just do it" and you have the next f*ck up off and running.

 

Then in 5 years time when there are no ocean races left cos no-one will insure the boats all the bleating will start. How about we short circuit it and try and encourage people to take an experienced hand with them when they head offshore till they gain the requisite knowledge. And clearly some will never get it and will finish up not out there - but that is probably a good thing.

[Grinna 2]

Then in 5 years time when there are no ocean races left cos no-one will insure the boats

 

Rocket, you really can't get past the whole "race" thing can you? There are a LOT of people who sail who don't race, aren't interested in racing and really don't give a flying fig if there are no ocean races left. Cruising is not racing, just like racing is not cruising. 2 very different things. You can't apply the principles of racing to cruising because most of it is simply not relevant and its not appropriate to apply your racing philosophy to people who cruise. Its like saying that you shouldn't be allowed to drive a car unless you can drive as well as Michael Schumacher. There's more to sailing that racing.

[Guest Brucey]

Please AC,

 

Quote “ you Q’s MIGHT be valid”

 

Give me and some of the others who read this site credit for a little intelligence at least, these questions need to be asked, and I am sure have been, if Insurance is involved. And it wasn’t me who kept re opening this thread, on a web site which IS about sailing discussions So if as I assumed that the silence, other than the ramblings of an innocent youth, signified a clear reticence to make anything public. Fine, then someone should tell the “crew” to STFU

 

And Wheals, your and KM’s keenness to chastise anyone who asks questions perplexes me, and your rush to the defence without having the information, only creates more questions.

 

The reality, as I said before, is that the second most common catastrophic failure faced at sea is steering loss, after rig loss, the third is keel control or total keel failure for canters. And probably 70-80% of the boats who venture off shore are relying on the assumption that they will rig a drag type emergency steering if required. If in fact this doesn’t work, then YNZ Cat 1 inspectors and most offshore venture’s need to re think their strategies. FACT many people have travelled many thousands of miles with drag emergency steering! I would not go off shore without both a sea anchor and drogue for these reasons.

 

And Sqwheels, yes I have used a drogue to steer a boat, albeit 10+ years ago, only for an hour or so to prove the system and only a few miles from Rangi light. It wasn’t easy but it worked fine from 60-70 True through to running, it did require sail adjustment in puffs to keep the balance.

 

Re your recent question of hypothetically, what would you do? Well now we are getting down to a discussion which may have some value to all of us in the future. This was why I and others asked questions weeks ago, which were rebuffed. And I will be most interested in the joint suggestions.

 

Firstly, on several occasions for this case it has been stated that the bottom of the rudder dropped off and the top was swinging freely, if this was in fact the case, and it is in most cases, I would venture to say that a competent crew could set a drag steering device which would give sufficient control in most conditions to steer. They had a sea anchor to deploy when conditions didn’t allow progress.

 

If as YOU NOW suggest the rudder is jammed at some significant angle then it clearly will not allow this form of steering. It must be freed. I would not consider jettisoning the rudder unless it was a last resort, as despite the plug which would be carried for this purpose there would be to high a risk of hull damage during the operation unless conditions were ideal. Not in the normal Trades!

 

So, and now I am starting to think about the order of the list of hair brain things which would be tried.

 

Firstly, patience is always required (rum helps) wait for the suitable conditions for what ever you are undertaking

 

Billy system inside to the Quadrant until the fecker breaks or moves

I assume that getting ropes around the rudder, using weighted ropes (weights added and taken of as required for multiple loops) one around one way and one the other, then add winch power…..if this didn’t free any jam I would eat my sick, no one needs to go under the boat if conditions don’t allow safely

Next, some slip (use blocks if required) lashing the pole to the rudder, and a control bridle off the end, apply anger.

If I had already fucked the pole, the boom would be the next long and strong on board and the Trisail doesn’t need it to sail, so use it.

The hand drill, or angry man with sharp knife, in the water when conditions allow would eventually get the hole through the rudder to tie to and steer.

About now second bottle of rum and go to plan B.

 

But I can tell you that would have taken a 3 or 4 times the 30 hours these guys were quoted as spending, and involved so many pukes that I’d lost count

 

Speaking generally, and this goes across to a discussion I think I have seen somewhere else, I would venture to suggest that the majority of the time it is lack of experience of crew which is the defining factor as to success of failure, and I concur with those who say we should be careful in encouraging to much of the “just go” attitude, because as this case has shown, disaster and potential loss of life is a reality.

 

Just saw your post Smithy are you really that ignorant as to think that a “Course” would give most people the skills to safely go offshore? Do you want people to die? This attitude will f*ck it for all of us.

 

For my money, from my armchair, they were under done and f&^#(n lucky. Flame away Barries.

[Guest Brucey]

Then in 5 years time when there are no ocean races left cos no-one will insure the boats

 

Rocket, you really can't get past the whole "race" thing can you? There are a LOT of people who sail who don't race, aren't interested in racing and really don't give a flying fig if there are no ocean races left. Cruising is not racing, just like racing is not cruising. 2 very different things. You can't apply the principles of racing to cruising because most of it is simply not relevant and its not appropriate to apply your racing philosophy to people who cruise. Its like saying that you shouldn't be allowed to drive a car unless you can drive as well as Michael Schumacher. There's more to sailing that racing.

 

 

Grinna, we dont let our children drive cars untill they have been trained and shown proficiency. We take them out with experienced people and show them and train them. You certainly dont just do a course in the class room then go for it, wether they are aspiring racing drivers or just want to go for a jolly old juant where ever.

 

Racing v Cruising, is bullshit but I can say cruisers get in more trouble than racers because of less crew and less experienced crew.

[Guest Rocket]

Grinna which bit of the racing philosophy would you dispense with - the preparing the boat well or having the experienced crew...

[smithy09 50]

Just saw your post Smithy are you really that ignorant as to think that a “Course” would give most people the skills to safely go offshore? Do you want people to die? This attitude will f*ck it for all of us.

 

Why am I ignorant? Ignorant of what?

 

That's what I did Brucey. Not the Pacific. The Bay of Biscay. I knew how to sail, reasonably well having been brought up with Ps, Moths, Lasers, R class etc etc, but had no idea on Navigation, mooring etc.

The RYA course was ferkin brilliant and not everyone who takes it, passes. I had a liferaft, VHF, flares, charts, Pilotage books and plenty of spares, but that was about it. I safely navigated the Chenal Du Four at night, the Alderny Race, and many other dodgy areas. I planned passages maticulously, probably with more preperation than most NZ Yachties who go offshore, (Because Navigation is so easy here) only because I was so scared of f**king it up..

The longest time I was at Sea was around 3-4 days, so I don't have the huge passage experience of many on here, but offshore coastal can often be more unforgiving than out at sea, due to hard things nearby like rocks and shoreline.

I'm not the only one. Rod Heikel did a similar trip after building his own boat and went on to be one of the best Pilotage Authors is the world (in my opinion).

I just hate to see dreams squashed by humbugs like you guys, because you set the bar so high... I'm not saying that Non sailors should just do a course then go to sea, but when I see a bunch of guys taking reasonable steps to gain experience before doing a long ocean passage, I say "Good on them" and wish them well. The fact that they are preparing so carefully, step by step, speaks volumes, and will stand them in good stead.

There's plenty of gung ho, experienced racers who never came back......

[Grinna 2]

Grinna, we dont let our children drive cars untill they have been trained and shown proficiency. We take them out with experienced people and show them and train them. You certainly dont just do a course in the class room then go for it, wether they are aspiring racing drivers or just want to go for a jolly old juant where ever.

 

Racing v Cruising, is bullshit but I can say cruisers get in more trouble than racers because of less crew and less experienced crew.

 

Actually we do let children drive cars ..... 15 years old is, in many cases, way too young.

 

In order to get Cat 1 a cruising skipper intending to leave NZ must satisfy the safety inspector that they and the crew do have a minimum level of proficiency. That includes offshore sailing experience. The problem is that even if you sailed 10,000 miles on ocean passages you would never experience every single situation that it is possible to encounter.

 

I would agree that not everybody is ideally suited to ocean sailing, but if the example that everybody is skirting around is the kiwi that asked on these forums about whether it was feasible to go ocean sailing after having gained some experience and qualifications locally, then that particular person showed an interest in gaining some knowledge and experience before setting out. They didn't propose buying a boat and setting off without having a clue. They may not be the most experienced crew in the world, but they at least showed a willingness to learn and a recognition that they didn't ahve all the answers. As I'm sure you're aware, the right attitude is worth a helluva lot when you're out in teh middle of nowhere and things are going wrong.

 

You're right, Racing vs Cruising is bullshit .... they are quite different, mostly because of attitude. Racers are generally pushing the boat and themselves as hard as they dare, are taking more risks, leave at a designated date adn time regardless fo the weather, are more likely to break gear, are more likely to be overcanvassed, etc, etc. The reason that there are more cruisers getting into trouble is that there are infinitely more cruisers out there while there are only a few racers and only in specific bursts of activity. An example - the Sydney to Hobart race that has resulted int eh death of several and the destruction of quite a few boats and gear.

[smithy09 50]

Yup. What Grinna said.

[Grinna 2]

Grinna which bit of the racing philosophy would you dispense with - the preparing the boat well or having the experienced crew

 

The racing mindset is not always the best approach to a situation for reasons I've already explained. Preparing the boat or having experienced crew is not exclusive to racing. Judging cruisers by the standards of a racer (bloody fool was just sloshing around in the middle of the ocean) is just patently ridiculous.

[Guest Rocket]

Go back and read it - didn't say that at all that is your prejudice not mine...

[Grinna 2]

Go back and read it - didn't say that at all that is your prejudice not mine...

 

Yep, did read it again. In every comment I've seen you make lately you've been very scathing of anybody who might dare install something on their boat that no self respecting racing yacht might have and anybody who might have any different approach to sailing than a balls out hardassed racing attitude is apparently a complete chump. That is very much the vibe you give with your posts - the "sloshing about" comment is simply the latest example. That is not my bias I'm afraid, that's yours.

 

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with being interested in racing or being disciplined, competitive, driven, etc ..... its just that its not always appropriate and not everybody should be judged by your standards .. particularly if they're not racing.

[Guest]

No squid never have hoven to if that is the right term. It was light with a sloppy sea, misty and a groundswell. They obviously had an auto pilot on cos there was noone on deck and they were slopping about. The point being they were freaking hard to see (anyone spend a lot of time looking under teh jib on the open ocean?) and it was hard to judge their course because tey wer sloshing about.

 

For your guide I am not a cruiser - never have been. No offence but I just don't go off and cruise I race. My bad...

 

 

What was the range of visibility? They had lights on so it was dark? Still mid ocean it's pretty easy to miss another boat once you see it, irrespective of its course. there's lots of room. Perhaps we should be asking why you weren't keeping a better look out.

And if you want to be prepared to go offshore I strongly advise heaving to a few times so that you can repeat it when you have to do it in anger

[Guest Brucey]

Yup. What Grinna said.

 

How very erudite of you Smithy, an IQ related offering I am sure.

 

Ignorant of the preperation required to safely undertake an Ocean Passage. Not just the usual passage, but the one where Murphy gets involved and its a cluster f*ck. Most trips arnt but it happens as we have seen.

 

"Did an RYA Offshore Nav course, jumped on a 30 footer and took off" were your words and this is a thread about Offshore passages is it not. Sounds very like "just do it" to me, hence my comments.

 

You subsiquently descride a more in depth learning curve as is needed, very few should just skipper off shore without first going with an experienced team. They dont even know if they become debilitated by seasickness yet,

and this is what is sensibly required. Lets face it if we have to many E Fails, it is just a matter of time before there will be manditory and expensive hoops to jump through for us all. And every time a boat doesnt complete a trip the cost is bourne by the rest of us. You yachties of experience have an obligation to encourage, no demand, that every boat going offshore has the required skills and preperation, what ever that very subjective thing is!!!

 

And as for any numb nuts without a lookout, doesnt worry me because I always do have and will miss him, but unless he has radar and AIS (or some acronym) he is just waiting to be run down by a ship.

 

Here comes Darwin again..............

[Guest]

I think you'll find that when cruisers say "just do it" they are implying "make the decision". They are not advocating heading off over the horizon without proper preparation.

[Guest]

rigger, it didnt jam because of the bearings, the top 400 ish mm that was left on the stock was spinning round freely and jamming against the hull (courtesy of broken tangs). so one minute it would be locked hard to port then it would get knocked by a wave and jam to starboard and so on...

[Guest Brucey]

Smithy,

 

Anyone who has to write to a chat room to find out what it takes is not ready for offshore.

 

And despite it not being everyones cup of tea, by virtue of the forced nature of go now, racing accelerates the bredth of problems seen and encountered and hence is a fast track to experience.

[Guest Brucey]

rigger, it didnt jam because of the bearings, the top 400 ish mm that was left on the stock was spinning round freely and jamming against the hull (courtesy of broken tangs). so one minute it would be locked hard to port then it would get knocked by a wave and jam to starboard and so on...

 

 

So all you had to do was get a rope around it and tie the fucker.

 

I rest my case Your Honour, guilty as charged and doesnt know when to STFU.

 

JH, go to Wikapedia, look up the 5th Amendment, and get Dad to explain what it means, as I advised a couple of days ago when I said dont answer plead the Fifth!

[Guest]

Smithy,

 

Anyone who has to write to a chat room to find out what it takes is not ready for offshore.

That's a bit lame, Bagging someone for asking advice.

[Guest Rocket]

Geez Squid - picky picky - of course we had a proper look out that is why we didn't hit him - the comment was purely to point out that yachts with lights and sails are hard enough to see at night on the ocean (when you aren't expecting to see one). So leaving one with no sails albeit with the llights left on in the hope that makes them not a hazard is a bit of a piss take (in my view). We have a minimum of three on deck at all times when we go out there...

 

frankly don't understand why it was not scuppered - any particular reason you can think of?

 

Only thing I come up with is a bob each way - "we might get back to it if we can organise ourselves..."

 

I have re read this thread and a few others and I reckon people have the view that cruisers are taking it easy so prep is less important - I think that is crap as with less crew you want less to go wrong. I reckon the attitude invites OSH etc to make it hard for you to play that game cos Darwin is going to get you otherwise.

 

Bet this boat will show up at some point -

[Guest]

this boat couldnt have been set up any better. he went so far as to have things like 4mm poly sheet made up so if the boat for a hole or a crack below the water line the sheet could be slipped over it on the outside so the water pressure would plug the hole. and we all assumed the spi pole and floor board thing would work