Jordan Rescued

[Guest]

clipper the main reason for us knot returning to fiji was...... we couldnt steer the thing. doesnt matter what direction we were going, we couldnt steer it. unfortunetly we didnt have brucey onboard so we couldnt get under the boat and get a bridle round the piece of rudder left on the stock

[Guest]

Ah gents and no disrespect for young JH here but the event has been explained by young Mr JH here on Crew or could I say a junior none-decision making boat crew member.

 

Speak to the skipper himself and he can explain his thinking and reasoning a bit better than JH has. Same story just explained better.

 

The decision wasn't taken lightly nor done in 2 minutes. In hindsite he reckons it was still the right one. And this guy is no shrinking violet suit wearing pansy, to say the very least.

 

I'm one very strongly in the 'Step up to a life-raft' camp but there are times and places that is the wrong call or at least knot the best call. Bit like the dude 2 years ago who got off his still floating but damaged boat while heading to New Cal. He got slammed by many as well but it would have been very interesting to see what those slammers would have said if he drowned his kids, or worse some of them, by continuing onwards after having the opportunity and been given advise knot too. He was also advised by authorities 'a big one is coming your way, get off the boat now while you still have a chance'.

 

Yes he and team JH may have made it to land safely but equally they may knot have. We weren't there so we can't say what we would have done.

[Bimini Babe 0]

I've been thinking about this the past few days, and regardless of whether the decision to abandon ship was the 'right' one or not, my biggest question still remains, why was the boat not scuppered once abandoned? I'd be very genuinely interested to hear the reason for not pulling the plug. Seems like, if it was a conscious decision to leave the thing floating, then that was undoubtedly the most irresponsible decision of the whole incident. Or were there other factors at play that I'm not aware of???

[Guest]

we left it with everything locked up, wind generator and solar panels on and nav and masthead lights on

[Guest Rocket]

Aren't you required to sink it? Was the owner having a bob each way?

[wheels 543]

You are only required to sink if it is deemed a hazard to Navigation. Having lights on and the means of charging so they stay on, it can be considered safe to navigation. It may indeed turn up closer to home one day and someone could salvage it.

 

(not addressed at you KM as I know you know this)

I think it also fair to say, the old comment of, "step up to a life raft" means after you have exhausted all other possibilities and the boat is going to go down or be be very dangerous to stay aboard, then and only then, step into a life raft. Because a life raft is always dangerous anyway. It is dangerous to get into if the sea is ruff, it is dangerous and certainly very uncomfortable to be in one, it is stressful hoping you are going to be found and rescued and then it is equally dangerous trying to get out of the things onto a ship.

In this particular case, the life raft was used as a means of transfer to the Ship. Not as a means of abandoning the Yacht simply because it had a failed rudder. If the Ship was another day or two or whatever, they would have stayed aboard the yacht till the ship arrived.

[Guest]

I think Wheels has it right.

 

The dude 2-3 years back who ended up bailing off his boat on the way to New Cal was told by authorities (NZ ones) he had to sink the boat, it was floating but in very bad shape anyway so was deemed a danger to navigation. The rescue vessel was a French navy Frigate. Once he had everyone aboard the Frigate he said to them OK she'll have to go use it for gunnery practice. The Captain said 'Sorry we have specifically been ordered knot to shoot at or sink NZ flagged vessels, you'll have to do it yourself'.

 

So they took him back in a RIB with 2 French engineers who confirmed the boat was on it's last legs anyway and videoed it all, which proved handy later for the insurance company. They preped and stripped what they could, cleaned up what they could to stop pollution and then told the skipper we'll pop off for 10 mins while you say good bye.

 

They came back and he opened the valves.

 

While the guy was telling me you could see the emotion coming out. 2 years later he was still in the welling up stage when he thought about it and he just about had me going at the same time. You could tell the guy was 100% gutted at having to do it even though he did know it was the correct course of action at the time.

 

Crap, I'm coming over all misty just thinking about it now.

 

But the good news is everyone got home alive, inc the 4 kids that were aboard. And he recently purchased another vessel to continue the dream/trip. The entire family are 100% behind the plan to have another crack. Good on them.

 

This dude got slammed by the Bruceys of the water front for stepping down into a liferaft (which was used only to get from boat to ship like JH's) but I do wonder what the Bruceys would say if he'd pushed on and it had gone totally bad, as everyone bar the skipper fully expected, and he'd drown the family. God forbid thinking what the skipper would feel like if he had and drown 1/2 the kids, that would be just so wrong.

 

Hence in my head there is a time and a place stepping down is the smartest option. But I will also add those times and places are few and far between. Way too much growth in people stepping down because it's convenient rather than a necessity.

[wheels 543]

Can you imagine what it would be like if we had to have OSH make the rules on it all. Actually no, don't try and imagine. It does your head in.

[Bimini Babe 0]

Yeah it has to be said, any decision where the end result is that all persons on board end up safe and sound can hardly be slated too much as being the wrong decision!

 

Still a little concerned about leaving the boat floating without anyone on board though. Electrics are fallible, and coll regs state that keeping a good lookout is required at all times. The rules aren't any slacker for single-handers, who are effectively in breach of coll regs when they sleep, so IMHO leaving a boat floating with no one on board is a bloody big breach of coll regs! Yeah f'in right it would be gutting to sink a perfectly good (minus obvious steerage problems) boat, but I can tell you I'd be pretty fucked off if I hit the thing on passage at night.

[Guest Brucey]

I don’t think I have bagged anyones decisions KM, other than the young fella’s to keep mouthing off about the event, but maybe it would have been a better decision not to get on the boat in the first place. All I did was ask some questions hopeing that maybe something may be learned.

 

It certainly sounds like the right decision for those involved, and to climb off the boat if you are in a position where you cant help yourself and have run out of ideas or the energy to change the situation is logical.

 

The questions I would ask are,

 

Why couldn’t the rudder be controlled or the boat emergency steered using the tried and true drogue method, even a makeshift drag device if no drogue was carried. The numerous recorded experiences of thousands of sea miles, and even the prepatory practices we have tried, show this to be a reliable method, and while you may not be able to beat to windward at 36 degrees true, you can run and tight reach at just a few knots off the norm. I am most interested in this answer as I have always anticipated this a fallback position should the necessity arise.

 

Is there any truth that there was rust weep from the rudder identified at a previous survey, but just a fill and paint repair without real problem identification/rectification?

 

Was there a cyclone forecast for the area? Was the opportunity of outside assistance explored? Did anyone official advise abandonment?

 

Did the fact that returning to Fiji would void insurance but abandonment not, affect the decisions made?

 

Do you feel the crew had sufficient experience for the voyage undertaken?

 

Has the insurance paid out?

 

JH do not answer these, plead the fifth.

[Fogg 427]

Brucey

 

You Qs might be valid and I'd be interested to hear the answers if possible. BUT remember that finding the answers would be 'nice to have' and not 'obligatory' i.e. nobody owes you these answers. And whilst JH was onboard I think we have established that he is just a young, ambitious and relatively inexperienced sailing spirit (certainly offshore) and he is neither the decision-maker nor the official spokesman - so picking holes in his responses looks like you are going for a soft target - hence the backlash here.

 

It would be much better if we got some good quality, voluntary answers from the decisions-maker(s) aboard rather than continue this speculation...

[wheels 543]

Brucey, first of all, please understand that JH was just a crew memeber. A Young crew member, although I am sure quite capable. He was not the Skipper. He followed his Seniors advice. So careful how you blame JH. He is just reporting the events and decisions as he see's and understands them.

He is nbot "bumping" this thread, but trying to bring further information as he can as others have requested.

I am sure you must be very experienced by the sounds of it. Not being rude here, but have you tried to steer one of these boats using a drogue? They are just impossible. They are like trying to steer a plastic bag being blown along the water trailing a piece of string.

I also don't quite understand why you have not got this point. The Rudder was, for some reason, jammed hard over. Many efforts were tried to un jam it. How on earth are you going to steer one of these boats using a drogue with the rudder hard over??? I really would like to hear your comment on that, as I honestly wouldlove to know for furture reference. They simply could not steer the boat anywhere full stop. It was going around in circles.

As for experience? Hell this crew is far more experienced than most that take this trip, far more experienced than many of us here and more than capable of sorting this problem if it was sortable. Honestly, if it could be fixed, these guys could have fixed it. If it was steerable, this crew would have been able to steer it.

If anything can be taken from this, it is that even an experienced crew sometimes has to draw a line and call it quits.

Oh and finally, the rust issue. I don'tknow the answer to that particular question, apart from work being done to the rudder before it went. So if that work answered the quetion of what was causing the rust. Then we can only assume it was.

[Guest]

IMO abandoning the boat without sinking is a non issue.Has anyone ever heard of a an abandoned YACHT causing damage to another vessel on the open ocean?

[Guest Rocket]

On a recent Suva race we came across one of the "rally" sailors sloshing around out there - I remember it because we passed so close to a boat in the middle of nowhere. They were very hard tosee in the conditions - and that was a boat with sails up and nav lights on (albeit no-one on deck). I hate the thought of big hunks of boat drifting around (without sails or lights) - ya really think the lights will still be on guys?

 

I am still in Brucey's camp I would put my head down if I was part of this cock up. Or be absolutely out there in terms of the issues and the decisions taken. The one about cyclone season in Fiji if they went that way and no insurance makes me gag. If that really weighed on them then they are chumps of the first order.

 

As to "as long as everyone is safe it was the right decision" please spare me - you could step of in Devonport having departed Westhaven on your world cruise and meet that test.

 

When you think of this effort and then read that other thread encouraging a bunch of beginners to head across oceans without some serious experience - no wonder our sport is in the headlines for all the wrong reasons. Do you guys actually get what level of preparation is required to properly cross an ocean - it seems not... Even on well prepared boats sh*t happens - the difference is well prepared boats have the resources to deal with them as they arise.

 

I would like to see the whole story not just the happy go lucky version that we have to date. That way we might at least learn something - and IMO you guys should stop telling people to just do it - that really grates.

[wheels 543]

I am still in Brucey's camp I would put my head down if I was part of this cock up.

Well OK then, this question is open to all your naysayers, not picking out just you Rocket. And I am asking it as a real and fari question. So how would you guys do this then.

How do you steer a boat that has rudder jammed hard over???

With the following issues

Drogues tried, but don't work or help.

Trying to remove rudder was attempted but found to be impossible.

Sea is big and dangerous

 

Forget about possible approaching storms and possible rescue. Lets just look at this scenario of trying to steer a Hull design that does not lend itself well to this kind of situation.

And I think it's fair for anyone to voice their opinions on this as it could be good info and valuable lessons.

[smithy09 50]

On a recent Suva race we came across one of the "rally" sailors sloshing around out there - I remember it because we passed so close to a boat in the middle of nowhere.

 

 

I am still in Brucey's camp I would put my head down if I was part of this cock up. Or be absolutely out there in terms of the issues and the decisions taken. The one about cyclone season in Fiji if they went that way and no insurance makes me gag. If that really weighed on them then they are chumps of the first order.

 

 

When you think of this effort and then read that other thread encouraging a bunch of beginners to head across oceans without some serious experience - no wonder our sport is in the headlines for all the wrong reasons. Do you guys actually get what level of preparation is required to properly cross an ocean - it seems not... Even on well prepared boats sh*t happens - the difference is well prepared boats have the resources to deal with them as they arise.

 

I would like to see the whole story not just the happy go lucky version that we have to date. That way we might at least learn something - and IMO you guys should stop telling people to just do it - that really grates.

 

Try as I may, I cannot let Rocket past on this one.

 

Have you ever noticed that in your posts Rocket, Rally sailors "slosh about" while you, our hero, races on??

What about this forum encouraging would be ocean sailors to "just do it". If you look at the post (I presume you are referring to) where those guys were asking reasonable questions about delivering a yacht back to NZ, they were not just "jumping in" and have taken serious preperation for the trip they propose to undertake.

Rocket, it may "piss you off" to see adventure encouraged on this forum, but it seems to me, that, in your eyes, only great sailors of your HUGE experience (Which may or may not be considerable, I don't know you) are "allowed" to undertake ocean crossings, and anyone who makes the slightest error, or vears from your idea of yachting perfection(Bowthrusters...) comes under instant and withering fire.

Well that attitude spells A R R O G A N C E to me, and that pisses ME off.

We are not all legends on the water, but that doesn't mean we are all dummies or useless either. Maybe it's time to give others the benefit of the doubt and cut a little slack??

 

As many have pointed out here, if you were not on the boat with JH then it is very hard to comment as, in a dry office behind a computer screen it is really easy to be critical. They all got back home safely, and that outcome speaks volumes to me.

[Guest Rocket]

Would need to get to the bearings and see why it was jammed hard over - clearly you need to unjamb it. One way (without going over the side) would be to run a line from forward - say chainplates (on the side it was turning towards) around rudder then up to a snap block on the opposite transom or slightly further forward (in line with rudder stock) and then to a primary and wind like f*ck. Another way would be to get to the nut holding it on back it off two turns and smash the stock down with a hammer. You need leverage - so maybe bash a hole to allow a big lever to get on aforementioned nut and see if you can turn it that way. Don't know the layout of those boats - but it sounds like they were familiar with the mechanism.

 

If a certain solo sailor could tether himself to his boat and dive over the side to clear a net from his keel surely a full crew could do something... And if you couldn't unjamb the rudder then you need to lose it - attach a strong "U" at ninety degrees to the kite pole slide it onto the trailing edge and try and break the trailing edge off - nibble away to you get left with just a stock - might even unjamb the rudder that way.

 

Why did it jamb? Was it bearings or did someone lose control and back up on a fully locked rudder? If it was bearings pour oil, or maybe solvent down the side of it

 

Would have kept you busy for a while at least.

 

Get over yourself Smithy09 - the way I learned was to start at the bottom - a spare part when other crew didn't/couldnt show. You then learn off the better guys on the boat, and learn and learn. You never stop getting stuff thrown at you on boats and have to keep challenging your knowledge. But no way would I have headed out after a shake down lap of the harbour - I would want some real grunt at the top end of the food chain on any boat I head off in. Fortunately or maybe because we learn we now have a really capable crew and a pool of guys who can step in. If wanting to be prepared is ARROGANT - then yep that me.

[Guest]

Must admit the "sloshing" comment made me raise my eyebrows. You mean you have never chosen to heave to for a couple of hours to cook a decent meal, take a crap and read your book before continuing merrily on your way. I'm sure that would appear strange to a gung ho racer, but to a cruiser a perfectly valid way to enjoy an ocean crossing.

[Guest Rocket]

No squid never have hoven to if that is the right term. It was light with a sloppy sea, misty and a groundswell. They obviously had an auto pilot on cos there was noone on deck and they were slopping about. The point being they were freaking hard to see (anyone spend a lot of time looking under teh jib on the open ocean?) and it was hard to judge their course because tey wer sloshing about.

 

For your guide I am not a cruiser - never have been. No offence but I just don't go off and cruise I race. My bad...

[smithy09 50]

I'm well "over myself" Rocket. I gave up being such a smartarse about everything after making lots of mistakes myself that I previously thought were purely in the domain of beginners and idiots. Running aground, BIG nav mistakes etc etc.. Maybe you have never been there. It's humbling.

 

I guess I can identify with the guys off on their delivery adventure, because I did the same thing. I knew how to sail, did an RYA Offshore Nav course, jumped on a 30 footer and took off. I learned a lot real fast. I was scared a lot, and I made mistakes. If I had waited for an opportunity with "someone at the top of the food chain" to sail with, I would probably have never left.

 

I'm sure you are real good at what you do. All I am saying, is grab a little humility and cut these guys some slack. They don't deserve the comments you keep throwing at them... No wonder newbies get put off sailing!