New Auckland Bylaws - have your say

[harrytom 269]

Unless I missed it,there are 2 very important question that needed to be asked.

1)are you a user of the Waitemata.

2)What type of vessel do you use.

These are important because you get all sorts responding who may never ever use the harbour and 2 if enough respondents are power vessel owners it would go in their favour to increase speeds, but if the majority were shown to be kayakers/yacht's it could be a different outcome.

Its proberly already set in stone and council just going through the motions.

[KM... 830]

On 27/11/2020 at 5:21 PM, harrytom said:

Unless I missed it,there are 2 very important question that needed to be asked.

1)are you a user of the Waitemata.

2)What type of vessel do you use.

These are important because you get all sorts responding who may never ever use the harbour and 2 if enough respondents are power vessel owners it would go in their favour to increase speeds, but if the majority were shown to be kayakers/yacht's it could be a different outcome.

Its proberly already set in stone and council just going through the motions.

100% correct but sadly the Akl Shitty Council has a very VERY solid track record of making the call they want then seeking 'consultation' in only places, manners and wordings that will come back saying those that responded want exactly what the council has already decided to do.

The list of things they have done based on seriously dodgy feedback and support is far larger than the list of things the public do actually support them on.

[ex Elly 51]

We have been through this all before when they introduced the limit.

It was originally planned to be a 10 knot limit, but after consultation they set it at 12 knots to reduce wake because some launches can't plane at 10 knots.

 

[bigal.nz 31]

I have replied with this :

 

I want the speed limit decreased on several grounds which are set out in numbered paragraphs below. I am a frequent user of the Waitemata harbour and make these submissions on many years of recreational experience on the harbour:

(1) Increasing the speed does not increase safety - it makes it worse. The councils primary consideration in any speed changes should be that of safety (in terms of decreasing risk of collision) and any wake/planing considerations should be secondary to that. I have seen many many incidents which nearly resulted in collisions.

(2) It is evident in my experience that many recreation users of the harbour are not aware of the precedence that maritime laws and bylaws take. The 5 knots within 50m of another boat takes precedence over the 12 knot limit, but many boats owners on boat the Waitemata harbour and Tamaki River are not aware of this and seem to think the 12 knots overrides the 5 knot rule. I know this because I have "educated" several power boaters in recent months and there response (incorrectly) is that they are allowed to do 12 knots.

(3) Speed Creep: Currently many boats see 12 knots and creep a bit above it and the resulting false speed ceiling is in reality really about 15-18 knots. By making it 18 knots the speed creep now really becomes more like 22-25 knots which is extremely fast for this busy part of the harbour.

(4) Lack of Enforcement - directly related to paragraph 4 is the complete lack of enforcement. From time to time I see the harbour master, and the occasional verbal warning issued, but I have never heard of enforcement action. The harbour master is rarely seen.

Also on the issue of lack of enforcement - I have tendered video evidence to the Harbour Master to 5 knot speed breaches. Harbour Master replied to me that its not admissible as it would not prove the speed/distance breach - this is not true as experienced captains can give a speed/distance estimated based on expert opinion evidence (Section 25 / Evidence Act 2006). In summary reduce the speed limit to 10 knots with zero tolerance enforcement is the submission. Anything else will result in increased risk of collision.

Did someone say the had the HM take action on video evidence? They wouldn't entertain it when I rang them - didn't even want to see the video.

Granted that wake causes accidents - but generally not as bad as what happens when boats collide.

 

[harrytom 269]

3 minutes ago, bigal.nz said:

I have replied with this :

 

I want the speed limit decreased on several grounds which are set out in numbered paragraphs below. I am a frequent user of the Waitemata harbour and make these submissions on many years of recreational experience on the harbour:

(1) Increasing the speed does not increase safety - it makes it worse. The councils primary consideration in any speed changes should be that of safety (in terms of decreasing risk of collision) and any wake/planing considerations should be secondary to that. I have seen many many incidents which nearly resulted in collisions.

(2) It is evident in my experience that many recreation users of the harbour are not aware of the precedence that maritime laws and bylaws take. The 5 knots within 50m of another boat takes precedence over the 12 knot limit, but many boats owners on boat the Waitemata harbour and Tamaki River are not aware of this and seem to think the 12 knots overrides the 5 knot rule. I know this because I have "educated" several power boaters in recent months and there response (incorrectly) is that they are allowed to do 12 knots.

(3) Speed Creep: Currently many boats see 12 knots and creep a bit above it and the resulting false speed ceiling is in reality really about 15-18 knots. By making it 18 knots the speed creep now really becomes more like 22-25 knots which is extremely fast for this busy part of the harbour.

(4) Lack of Enforcement - directly related to paragraph 4 is the complete lack of enforcement. From time to time I see the harbour master, and the occasional verbal warning issued, but I have never heard of enforcement action. The harbour master is rarely seen.

Also on the issue of lack of enforcement - I have tendered video evidence to the Harbour Master to 5 knot speed breaches. Harbour Master replied to me that its not admissible as it would not prove the speed/distance breach - this is not true as experienced captains can give a speed/distance estimated based on expert opinion evidence (Section 25 / Evidence Act 2006). In summary reduce the speed limit to 10 knots with zero tolerance enforcement is the submission. Anything else will result in increased risk of collision.

Did someone say the had the HM take action on video evidence? They wouldn't entertain it when I rang them - didnt even want to see the video.

 

We had reason to contact the harbour master vessel in Tamaki river a few yrs ago due to the 50m 5knt rule,they happened to of gone past us ealier,called on vhf16 and they responded to vessel concerned. When we went past they were getting lecture on the ruless.Good outcome!.

[bigal.nz 31]

2 minutes ago, harrytom said:

We had reason to contact the harbour master vessel in Tamaki river a few yrs ago due to the 50m 5knt rule,they happened to of gone past us ealier,called on vhf16 and they responded to vessel concerned. When we went past they were getting lecture on the ruless.Good outcome!.

Yeah that is good, but after the fact if they are not around they didn't seem to be interested in following up when I rang. Didn't even want the video sent through. Perhaps it depends you get.

[harrytom 269]

Just now, bigal.nz said:

Yeah that is good, but after the fact if they are not around they didn't seem to be interested in following up when I rang. Didn't even want the video sent through. Perhaps it depends you get.

Do we want an active water police like overseas??I have no problem if we do . Educate first then prosecute.

 

[The big T 14]

15 hours ago, harrytom said:

Do we want an active water police like overseas??I have no problem if we do . Educate first then prosecute.

 

Retired Deodar sergeant on education versus fines - "after 3 fines they soon learn" 

[bigal.nz 31]

I wonder how many does they have issued. I can feel a OIA request coming on.

[Priscilla II 246]

I has labouring under the misconception that the speed limit had already risen to 40 knots given the AC support craft behaviour.