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After Midnight

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Yeah some good points there AC.

 

I think people need to remember the world is changing fast and horrendously so in the last 10 years. Twas only years rather than decades ago people got easy access to oversees suppliers via the interweb so this problem is a new one knot an old one. Along with that is many businesses are still thinking pre that change and it's only very very recently they have been confronted with what to do when say Mr AC brings the Widget he purchased online from Whatphaka in to Thingame's Marine for repairs. Ten years ago Marine repairs probably saw bugger all service work on gear they didn't sell, today that amount is growing and in places growing very fast.

 

I seriously doubt any 'agent' would get 100% of their costs back from warranty work so would probably build in a smidgen to help cover those costs at the time of sale. You buy elsewhere and they will be out of pocket.

 

We have a situation sort of similar going on at the moment. A company parallel imported some rope we sell lots of but have been making a bit of a hash of it with sizing, chain matching and for some weird reason rope hardening prematurely. As most know we have that rope the grumpy punters gets sent to us, sees the same rope and expects us to sort their issue out at our cost. Sorry but that's knot gonna happen. We tell the grumpy ones to take it back to where they brought it or we will fix it but we will charge them for the pleasure. We will do what we can at no cost but there is a limit obviously. I shouldn't complain really as that is proving to be nice business for us. A bad example maybe :)

 

Over time, and knot that long I'd expect, I think it'll all change but until that happens I have no issues with people charging for repairs (some time if knot the parts) on gear knot brought from them and within the, often old school, warranties prescriptions. If it's a major issue for the punters they should speak to the manufacturers who set the rules, knot the sellers who are bound by them. If you want the locals after sales support how about supporting them in the 1st place. At the moment all I see is punters basically walking into NZ outfits and saying 'Here you rip off artists I chose knot to support, can you please help me now I have a problem with the gear I cut your lunch on'.

 

I don't know of any brand the NZ people won't support, there maybe I just haven't heard on any, but just how they do it does vary from what I see. Some do it no cost, some don't.

 

As an exercise Mr AC. How many hours do you think would have been spent on gear issues you've had over the years? By the fixer people rather than yourself I mean.

 

And we should probably be using Raymarine as an example, it looks like they are one of the few who have realised the world has changed and have tweaked their systems/procedures to suit.

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As an exercise Mr AC. How many hours do you think would have been spent on gear issues you've had over the years? By the fixer people rather than yourself I mean.

 

Let's see. The first time it stopped working I paid my sparky to come and test the system to confirm it was the head unit that had stopped giving output rather than the motor drive failing. Then I took the head unit off myself, took it to L&B who then spent maybe an hour testing it and replacing the circuit board before I refited it myself. L&B time = 1 hr.

 

The 2nd and 3rd times, I called L&B and asked for onsite help. L&B came out to AC and did the circuit board repair or in the 3rd case brought a replacement head unit. They also did a test of AC's 12v system to check for causes but verdict each time = no problem. So allowing for travel 2hrs travel and 2 hrs onsite = 4hrs per repair = 8hrs.

 

So allowing for telephone conversations etc, total L&B time for these 3 failures has been about 9-10hrs. And of course I'ev had to take time off work to be there for the 2 site visits.

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As an aside, if you assumed labour rates of ~$80/hr then the L&B time would be around $800. Which is close to half the price of the Raymarine system when I bought it new ~$2,000 I think. Assuming L&B were able to charge this time (or a good portion of it) back to Raymarine under warranty arrangements, that is a good incentive to improve reliability because Raymarine would have to be making a loss on my purchase?

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OK so using that example, and it's just an example, I would be surprised if Raymarine fronted for 8-10 hours of labour plus the bits.

 

So assuming someone purchased that gear offshore as L&B were rip-off artists, does anyone think it is fair L&B pick up the tab to fix your lunch cutting purchase? I sure don't and I suspect L&B management probably wouldn't either.

 

Just imagine 2 boats a month with issues and all on knot sold by L&B gear, unlikely I'd think but still a possibility. How long do you think L&B would continue to fix gear they didn't sell and no cost to the punter? Giving away, as that is effectively what some seem to expect, $100's, if knot $1000's, a month to help people who think they are pricks isn't good business.

 

If they did decide to continue like that, probably only to stop people who think they are pricks and cut their lunch anyway from bitching, who do you think will end up paying for that? It wouldn't be the lunch cutters, it would be the NZ purchasers.

 

But as AC mentions, if L&B could (which it may do, I don't know but think it's unlikely they would get 100% reimbursement) it sure would be an incentive for Raymarine to get their shite together.

 

Yes AC, I know you didn't lunch cut, Raymarine and L&B are only being used as examples based off a real life event/s........ he says thinking I wonder how I'd go writing promos for movies :)

 

Opps, according to my spell checker my career would be short, very short, red lines from arse to breakfast. I'm fired already :(

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Righty here's a little info for the Electronically uneducated. Nobody "fixes" these electronics these days. It is pretty much impossible and certainly uneconomic. The boards are covered in SMD (sub miniuture devices). Some components are replacable with a steady hand an damn good soldering iron. But the boards are all spat out in a CNC type machine thses days and are actually very cheap. In fact, if you knew just how cheap it is to mas produce a PCB(Printed Circuit Board), you would think we are all being completely ripped off. Well actually in some ways we are, but pricing is more than just the Item. Anyway, it is really a case of replacement. It is too expensive to fault find, far cheaper to clip in a new board and throw the old one away. Some larger expensive and slightly less Mass produced items make it a different story, but they are not mass consumer products. Even way over 20yrs ago when I was servicing Autohelm products, it was swap out PCB's. TV took a little longer to get to that stage. We didn't fully see that till it got to Plasma sets. The odd one or two expensive normal CRT sets started heading that way. F&P washign machines had that technology(if you can call it technology) way back with the Gentle Annie.

The greater costs attributed to the cost of a product comes from R&D and Marketing. The greater the numbers of items that can be sold, the more that cost can be spread over the numbers and the cost comes down.

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wheels is right, there is no 'repairing' as such going on, it's all just switching out faulty components (in my case whole circuit boards).

 

All I'm saying is that it should not be beyond the whit of man to devise an arrangement for local operations to support products wherever they were bought - and to come to whatever commercial arrangements they need to do with the manufacturer and/or customer to make it work.

 

I'm just objecting to the sentiment that "if you didn't buy it here then bog off" because I think it is short-sighted, not customer-friendly and a head-in-the-sand approach to the real world in which people can and do shop offshore for better prices. It is against the interests of both local suppliers and global manufacturers - they ought to work together to find a customer-friendly solution.

 

The marine industry is not unique but the irony is that for kit bought by cruisers, very often they will be needing support in other locations to where they bought it because they are cruising!

 

Canon's worldwide warranty is widely known about in camera circles and works as a positive sales aid in making people feel comfortable buying the kit anywhere, any time safe in the knowledge it will be supported anywhere on planet earth. It's an example that other manufacturers should aspire to.

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I completely agree AC just all I'm saying it that many have yet to realise that and work a amicable solution for all. Also saying that in the meantime why should a local company spurned by the purchaser then be Aholes if they don't fix stuff for nothing.

 

So if you are intending to buy instruments offshore maybe look to the brands that have gone 'single policy globally', just like Raymarine for example.... yet again.

 

A very quick look at couple of others do show some traps -

- I understand Nexus runs the same Global like warranty, their appears some pricing differences between here and offshore. So maybe that's one someone could suss with a small degree of safety I think, assuming they don't mind assisting other countries economy's at the expense of NZ's and possibly decreasing the employed staff at the local outfits place.

 

- Navico gear i.e. B&G, Simrad, Northstar. If you buy it out of NZ and fit it to a boat in NZ you totally void all warranty. You have to fit the gear in the jurisdiction it was purchased in to get any warranty at all. That is the only part of their terms that is printed in bold big letters. It's followed a sentence or 2 later with specifically saying their agents have no responsibility to repair, replace, fix or whatever gear brought outside of their jurisdiction. The Warranty is very clear cut and clearly spelled out.

 

- Just chatted to another outfit whose policy is if it's brought locally, was on a boat imported into NZ or a visiting boat, no worries. If purchased offshore and fitted new to a boat here it's a No. But in saying that they would talk to the manufacturer on the punters behalf and if the manufacturer said Yes they would then fix it. The std manufacturer warranty is very similar to Navicos. They will still fix imported gear even if the manufacturer says No but they charge the punter in cases like that.

 

Also a couple have some pretty short time frames so if you buy offshore and go slow cheap shipping you could chew up a lot of that time.

 

In NZ Law if you push the point in front of a Judge you will be told 'It is the importers responsibility to warranty the gear'. If you buy it offshore you are the importer/manufacturer in NZ law. For me that works the same, any problems are knot the responsibility of the manufacturers we buy from, it is mine as I'm the importer so 'the manufacturer' in the eyes of NZ law. That's another reason we steer of crap, knot only does it cost the punter but it costs me as well.

 

This law has very recently been put to the test again by a irate punter who imported some boat gear made by a big name. It arrived and he had issues so went to the local agents. The local agents recognised him from when they helped specify the gear, which the punter then brought offshore (that is becoming more common and pissing off a lot in the industry), so they said Sorry Mr Numbtie it's all your problem. He bitched, called lawyers, into Court only to be told the same thing by the Judge. He now has to ship everything back to the US and accept the costs and time frames that come with that. It wasn't instruments but something very close to them.

 

I'm sure things will change but at the moment there are a lot of traps out there for offshore shoppers. I suppose it comes down to those immortal words from that Great Poet Harry 'you've gotta ask yourself a question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?'

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KM

 

You are pretty much right as you know we represent a number of brands and if the gears brought here, comes in on and imported new boat or is a visiting overseas boat no worries on warranty. If someone decides to bring it in on their own back and has a problem well they have a bigger problem as it will cost them.

 

I had a guy the other day I priced something he said we were to expensive and he was going to bring it in him self 2 weeks later get a call asking if I had some bits from the same guy evidently what he brought in didn't quite have all the bits needed to make his gear work which our price did. So guess what sort of a response he got and he said I wasn;t been very helpful!!!!!!!!!!!

 

With all the brands we represent we as a distrubutor have to wear most of the labour we do get exceptions but these are done on case by case but 99% of the time its us that takes the labour hit hence making sure installs are done correct is a big part of our job keeping an eye on things.

 

I would be supprised if Nexus was cheaper over seas than here but with the way the dollar is and how some of the discount websites work which have no actual warehouse etc so no over heads its been an absolute headache with everything we sell but think we have been pretty on top of it.

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I'm surprised we haven't heard more in the general media about the formal policy on companies supporting warranties locally in NZ on products bought overseas. I'm not talking about marine equipment specifically, but general stuff.

 

As an example, Canon makes a point that all their camera warranties are "worldwide". This meant that I was happy to buy various Canon cameras, lenses and accessories in a variety of locations including Dubai, India and HK. And I know that the local NZ Canon service centre (conveniently next to the Northcote Rd offramp) will support any issues either within the warranty period or outside it, on normal terms.

 

The reason for buying kit overseas and ending up with it back in NZ was a combination of convenience (where I was at the time) and sometimes small price advantage. But Canon ensures the price of their kit is reasonably consistent around the world which reduces customer motive for high volumes of arbitrage purchases.

 

However, here in "rip-off" NZ plenty of other goodies are not so fairly priced resulting in large volumes of offshore purchases - whether that is due to the flexible pricing policy of the manufacturers allowing it or decisions of local retailers to bump up margins, I don't know.

 

But as the level of online/offshore purchasing increases, I'm sure the question of local product support will become more prominent.

 

Sorry as a rather random aside..

 

AC you might want to check that out regarding Canon.. as they won't support my warranty claim on my camera (Digital Compact Camera) purchased from Canon Europe (was travelling through Europe, broke my camera, bought another, it subsequently broke while in Europe) when I bought it back to NZ they said I had to send it to Canon Europe to fix it under warranty, so unless they are telling pork pies then what you had there is not the case.

 

I thought like most people that as a large multinational corporation that they would have no problem fixing it here where I can explain the problem in English rather than Spanish...

 

They will fix it, however they will charge me for it (not sure if this was what your comment was referring to re warranties or not)

 

Just to clarify :)

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by emai;

 

HI David,

wet day here in Christchurch so had time after reading about the warranties to check so rung Cannon and asked.

 

Seems that since September this year, all warranties are based only where sold, not worldwide, prior to September, only lens were world wide warranted.

 

Seems silly for a world wide company.

 

So I rang Fuji NZ, as we have had good run with them, for film, and asked them about their warranty.

 

The nice lady there said that their cameras have an international warranty, and if say we brought one here, and went to Singapore for a few months, and the camera faulted, we should simply take into the fuji shop there, and if it cannot be repaired they are to replace it with a new one.

 

Wow.

 

Cannons are a nice camera, but the warranty sounds not great if you travel a bit.

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I would be supprised if Nexus was cheaper over seas than here but with the way the dollar is and how some of the discount websites work which have no actual warehouse etc so no over heads its been an absolute headache with everything we sell but think we have been pretty on top of it.

Twas just a quick suss so you could be right.

 

Had another company tell me they work the same way as you do. So that's 3 of you now including the one I mentioned above.

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