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collisions on the harbour while racing


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wind speed around 10 knots, we were sailing just off the wind.

 

the "yacht" was a 6.5m wide catamaran. Heading up would have caused a catastrophic collision for both vessels. We could not go down as there was another yacht racing below us.

 

We hit the pin as the best choice to avoid the collission with the boat, it was not a decision that was made without considering how else to try and avoid the motorboat.

 

 

2) Did you make any attempt to avoid a collision?

 

We did try to avoid the collision, we slowed down as much as possible, all sheets eased. yelled at the guy to move but got no response. (our tacking circle is massive so tacking was not an option)

 

the MOTORBOAT driver was looking at us for quite some time with his hand on the throttle before moving.

 

We did not want to hit him. But who parks that close to the start line pin end without a death wish ?

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Ha ha.

In collisions (and the cases that sometimes follow) liability is never absolute. That is to say one vessel is absolutely wrong and the other absolutely right.

There is an apportionment of liability or responsiblity between the two vessels.

Hence some of the questions I have posed.

You can also bet your bottom dollar that the skipper of the motor boat will have had a diferent view of this incident (and no it wasn't me because i was boarding a plane in Christchurch at the time.).

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Putting aside the question of why the MOTORBOAT was there in the first place, I'm curious as to the reason you didn't choose to headup or tack in sufficient time to avoid it i.e. make allowance for the huge turning circle?

 

Am I looking at this too simplistically?

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You are correct, the other skipper did have a slightly different view (in fact I think he may have been blind and stupid) and I have altered the facts to fit the middle ground of what is probably truth.

 

What disgusts me most about this, is that it was a RNZYS squadron chase boat that hit us, and they seem to think that they have absolutely no responsibility for the inccident.

So its completely ok for a RNZYS chase boat to motor through the start area whenever they want and hit starting yachts ! BULLSHIT !!! where is the common sense people ! These guys should know better.

 

What really really really gets me, is that they have never even said sorry, and made no attempt to contact us after they hit us.

 

good on yah RNZYS way to go. NOT.

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Putting aside the question of why the MOTORBOAT was there in the first place, I'm curious as to the reason you didn't choose to headup or tack in sufficient time to avoid it i.e. make allowance for the huge turning circle?

 

Am I looking at this too simplistically?

 

wait till you are in the same position at the start of a race. You dont expect to find a motorboat just above the pin with 10 seconds to go ....especailly when you need that area in the start area to keep clear of the boats below you.

 

simplistically, lets just not go racing if they are going to start putting random moving obstacles in the start area.

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One of the lessons that were given to boat drivers in the AC events was that if you were the driver of a RIB, launch, or mark boat and the yachts came close, was to go into neutral and take your hands off the throttle and helm.

In that way you become an obstruction the boats have to avoid.

 

As an aside col(reg :D ), how does this work?

 

Do the yachts beocme overtaking vessels? Or have i misread the rules? I read that if you are a power boat underway, you must give way to sailing vessels unless you are being overtaken?

 

Or was it an agreement with the sailors themselves?

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wait till you are in the same position at the start of a race. You dont expect to find a motorboat just above the pin with 10 seconds to go ....especailly when you need that area in the start area to keep clear of the boats below you.

 

Hey, don't get me wrong I completely empathise with you. There is a lot happening in that last 10 seconds or so of race start and I absolutely wouldn't be expecting a fizz boat parked at the end of the start line. I would however expect the person I place on watch to advise well in advance of anything unexpected. There job is to continuously call line position and other relative boat positioning. It's a lot harder when we are doing two handed.

 

Whatever the "legal" outcome, the MOTORBOAT was in the wrong place and should have known better! An apology would be the minimum expectation.

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What disgusts me most about this, is that it was a RNZYS squadron chase boat that hit us, and they seem to think that they have absolutely no responsibility for the inccident.

So its completely ok for a RNZYS chase boat to motor through the start area whenever they want and hit starting yachts ! BULLSHIT !!! where is the common sense people ! These guys should know better.

They've claimed that before and the investigation found quite the opposite. Mind you it is common and smart to never accept any responsibility at any incident so what they were saying might knot be what they were actually thinking. The Squaddy more than most clubs would be more legaled up so it could just be what the crews are told to say should something like that happen.

 

But totally agree, if there is any vessel on the harbour that should know better a Squaddy, or any YC's, safety boat would be damn near top of the list, if knot top that list especially when talking in a yacht race start zone. Yes, knot a good look is indeed a fair comment.

 

Go have a nice cool calm chat with a Squaddy high up and see what you can work out between you. They aren't the arrogant SOB's they once were so you just never know.

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One of the lessons that were given to boat drivers in the AC events was that if you were the driver of a RIB, launch, or mark boat and the yachts came close, was to go into neutral and take your hands off the throttle and helm.

In that way you become an obstruction the boats have to avoid.

 

As an aside col(reg :D ), how does this work?

 

Do the yachts beocme overtaking vessels? Or have i misread the rules? I read that if you are a power boat underway, you must give way to sailing vessels unless you are being overtaken?

 

Or was it an agreement with the sailors themselves?

 

It doesn't work, not in any legal sense. Red herring in this thread I think.

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You are correct, the other skipper did have a slightly different view (in fact I think he may have been blind and stupid) and I have altered the facts to fit the middle ground of what is probably truth.

 

What disgusts me most about this, is that it was a RNZYS squadron chase boat that hit us, and they seem to think that they have absolutely no responsibility for the inccident.

So its completely ok for a RNZYS chase boat to motor through the start area whenever they want and hit starting yachts ! BULLSHIT !!! where is the common sense people ! These guys should know better.

 

What really really really gets me, is that they have never even said sorry, and made no attempt to contact us after they hit us.

 

good on yah RNZYS way to go. NOT.

 

From here, if it was me in your position I'd write all the facts down as clearly as you can, draw it up to make it clear & make a phone call to the Squadron. Find out who is prepared to take responsibility for sorting it out, while gently reminding them that the only other course of action lies with the harbourmaster's office.

I would think that they may want to avoid that, didn't work out so good for them last time!

Keep us posted.

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In the words of the squadron

 

 

Squadron 2 was heading west, towards the bridge, and was positioned on the transit of the start line, holding position.

 

Both were watching down the line, not ahead.

 

When they saw you approaching from the west, running over the ODM, the driver turned to starboard.

 

In your first report to the Squadron you stated that your port bow hit S2's rear starboard quarter.

 

You hit the port quarter. That occurred when S2 was turning away to starboard to avoid collision.

 

As she turned the stern swung out, resulting in the collision.

 

Had they not moved the situation would have been worse, as you understand.

 

This matter has been discussed in General Committee and with the Commodore.

 

He confirms that the Squadron cannot accept any responsibility for the accident.

 

It was unfortunate that it occurred and we have made changes in our operations to try to ensure it does not occur again.

 

 

 

I struggle to see how they are not at fault.

 

this does just prove to me though that some of the squadron stereo types that I have heard about over the years really are true.

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[quote name="Bad KittyFrom here' date=' if it was me in your position I'd write all the facts down as clearly as you can, draw it up to make it clear & make a phone call to the Squadron. Find out who is prepared to take responsibility for sorting it out, while gently reminding them that the only other course of action lies with the harbourmaster's office.

I would think that they may want to avoid that, didn't work out so good for them last time!

Keep us posted.[/quote]

 

I have already finished playing nice. I am now doing it the other way.

 

The squadron have made their position very clear, so I am going to make mine clear as well.

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Perhaps let them know you feel obliged to report this collision to the harbour master.....from the additional information you've posted, it seems like they have a case to answer.

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I'd say the reply was just the std one, probably as advised by legal, in an attempt to make the little fella think 'Oh I'll never beat those big fellas' in the hope you'll just let it slide. That is common place and common practice, even the Govt does the exact same thing.

 

I agree with Bad Kitty's course of action. But do so calmly and without losing the plot.... at this stage. Save that until later, if required.

 

To me that reply does sort of acknowledge -

They might knot have been keeping an 'adequate lookout' in a place they should know very well to have a bloody good one.

As the S2 tried to move it did cause the coming together which would have been a pile worse if they didn't.

And they know what they did wasn't good so they are changing procedure due to that.

 

Personally I think the reply is only an attempted brush off from someone who knows they are on potentially shaky ground. It just doesn't show the conviction you would expect if they were 100% positive they are 100% in the right.

 

Did you run over the ODM?

Which 1/4 did you hit with which bow of your boat? Do they have that bit right?

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Ok so a powerboat sitting at idle is still a powerboat.

You are approaching nearly bow to bow? He should have turned to stbd in time to avoid you (or just got the hell out of the way), you should not have continued on your course to the point where you had no escape route.

As col said an apportionment, but based on what we have here let's say 80/20 in your favour.

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Ok so a powerboat sitting at idle is still a powerboat.

You are approaching nearly bow to bow? He should have turned to stbd in time to avoid you (or just got the hell out of the way), you should not have continued on your course to the point where you had no escape route.

As col said an apportionment, but based on what we have here let's say 80/20 in your favour.

 

He shouldn't have been there in the first place, so I'd say the blame is entirely with the motorboat.

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Ok so a powerboat sitting at idle is still a powerboat.

You are approaching nearly bow to bow? He should have turned to stbd in time to avoid you (or just got the hell out of the way), you should not have continued on your course to the point where you had no escape route.

As col said an apportionment, but based on what we have here let's say 80/20 in your favour.

 

He shouldn't have been there in the first place, so I'd say the blame is entirely with the motorboat.

 

 

So you are out for a sunday picnic sail, a boat is travelling at idle speed and on a collision course, you have right of way, absolutely no dispute, but he isn't looking at you, do you hold your course and hit him?

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Ok so a powerboat sitting at idle is still a powerboat.

You are approaching nearly bow to bow? He should have turned to stbd in time to avoid you (or just got the hell out of the way), you should not have continued on your course to the point where you had no escape route.

As col said an apportionment, but based on what we have here let's say 80/20 in your favour.

 

He shouldn't have been there in the first place, so I'd say the blame is entirely with the motorboat.

 

Well while I side with the cat entirely in this case, the launch has a right to be wherever he likes. It may not be smart to be there, and given it's a Squadron boat it's bloody stupid, he's supposed to be helping run the race not stuff it up.

But let's stick to facts because that's where this is heading, and provided he follows all the rules he can be there.

From the limited information we have it looks like he stuffed up, and while the Squadron "cannot accept any responsibility" (their words) the relevent maritime authorities will have no issue stuffing said responsibility down their throat. The cat may have to shoulder some blame for failling to avoid a collision.

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So you are out for a sunday picnic sail, a boat is travelling at idle speed and on a collision course, you have right of way, absolutely no dispute, but he isn't looking at you, do you hold your course and hit him?

 

of course you hold course....., its most likely your mates bringing you some more MOUNT GAY RUM .......

 

 

for sure, I totally agree, an apportionment of blame is almost always required, I accept we didn't manage to avoid the collision either thats fine.

 

its the not taking any responsbility approach from the squadron that really gets up my nose.

 

So in a situation like this, do you report this to the harbour master ? maritime police ? do they then follow it up and further gather facts ?

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Just to play devils advocate, where should a race committee place a patrol boat if the start line is too long to see end to end? I know with the kids dinghy racing we will have a rib on the pin end if need be.

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