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collisions on the harbour while racing


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I guess we arent talking about a Y88 start here where there is alot more time to react. There was a whole line of boats being pushed up toward the pin and 30seconds before the start there looked to be well enough room to get through. I saw the committee boat and my thoughts at the time were WTF is he doing there -there is no room to bail. The other thing I remember is that it seemed to take them alot of time to react to a quickly evolving (but not uncommon) situation. Easy to say after the fact when it isnt you that has to respond under pressure but putting the rib into reverse and earlier might have avoided contact?

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Mikey since you were originally specking hypothetically.

 

Hypothetically if the breeze was from the south instead of the north and you were at the other end of the line on starboard getting called up by the boats below when do you think you would of bailed out of the start? Would you have kept on sending it in there hoping some one would be nice and let you in just because of the big start boat? that may of happened once upon a time in the muilti fleet but not any more. The rental even has two protest flags.

 

Lets face it you stuffed up the start and got tangled up with another boat, who would have had all reason to expect you to be on the other side of the pin or to be bailing out to go back for another go at the start. Maybe instead of yelling at them to move you should have got your sh*t together and bailed out. You were never going to get in there and bitching about them being there doesn’t change that.

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My take on some of the recent comments on this is that there are many who apparently think is it appropriate to have a MOTORBOAT, with a poor lookout, situated a boatlength from the start of a yacht race, who does not need to keep out of the yachts way?

 

REALLY???

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Ken regardless of whether the wingboat should or should not have been there we cant just go around ramming other boats, whether yachts or powerboats!

 

All I can say is if I rammed a RNZYS race committee boat and did serous damage I would be apologizing to them, not demanding an apology and I think Mikey is out of line.

 

The Squadron is our club and its run by volunteers, and funded by its members (i.e. you and me), its not us vs them!

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Sorry Clipper the chase boat had every right to be there, and every right to think that the fleet will avoid the bouy and observer at the pin.

 

The fact that there was any contact is totally down to the boat starting.

 

As for the RNZYS I would have thought that common curtesy would have dictated a F2F meeting even to just deliver regret if not remorse. That said it's no fault of the volunteers who kindly give their time so we can race, how were they to know the skipper had suffered a lobotomy that day?

 

So here we have yet another blatant and confessed case of barging at the start something endemic in parts of the multihull fleet, it's not bumper boats ladies!!!

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Clipper, if the RM boat was spotting for OCS then it's pretty much where they have to be to satisfy a protest committee they had an unobstructed view and were looking straight down the start line.

 

If the boat was just spectating, then perhaps prudence would dictate that being somewhere else might have been a better plan.

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Mikey since you were originally specking hypothetically.

 

Hypothetically if the breeze was from the south instead of the north and you were at the other end of the line on starboard getting called up by the boats below when do you think you would of bailed out of the start? Would you have kept on sending it in there hoping some one would be nice and let you in just because of the big start boat? that may of happened once upon a time in the muilti fleet but not any more. The rental even has two protest flags.

 

Lets face it you stuffed up the start and got tangled up with another boat, who would have had all reason to expect you to be on the other side of the pin or to be bailing out to go back for another go at the start. Maybe instead of yelling at them to move you should have got your sh*t together and bailed out. You were never going to get in there and bitching about them being there doesn’t change that.

 

hey, this has nothing to do about getting a good start, in fact we did bail out of the start as any proper racing boat would. but when we bailed out there was a motorboat right where we needed to "get out" .

Never complained about being forced up off the start line, sure we didn't quite time it right, but we made no contact with the boats below and weren't just going to "send it in there" in your words.

 

this is about a poorly positioned motorboar that wasn't keeping a good watch.

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here is a rough summary with some more details.....

 

15 seconds before start yacht was the windward boat at the start line.

another yacth was to leeward of the yacht and holding the yacht high of the start line.

The yacht started slowing down, all sails were eased to reduce speed.

Yacht is heading down the harbour away from the harbour bridge.

10 seconds from start, Hoping that a gap would appear on the start line the yacht continues to slow and also started to look for an exit strategy.

5 seconds from start, With no room to leeward the yacht had to either, hit the start line pin , or go above the pin.

the yacht would have gone above the pin but there was a MOTOR BOAT positioned just past the pin slightly to windward, (not anchored but drifting with motors on).

The MOTORBOAT was positioned facing the harbour bridge.

We yelled at the MOTORBOAT to get out of there, but got no response.

The yacht then hits the start pin, with no room to leeward as another yacht was still there.

The MOTOR BOAT has now attempted to move realising their predicament, and is moving forwards whilst turning to starboard.

The YACHTS port bow makes significant contact with the rear starboard quarter of the MOTOR BOAT, as the MOTORBOATS rear quarter swings around.

YACHT is damaged, and MOTORBOAT makes no attempt to say sorry, see if everyone is ok, or follow up on the incident with the yacht.

 

You left it too late to call the bail out clearly. Safety and in fact racing prudence says it is much better to bail early (or slow right down and go in #2 if this is an option) than have a ding or tangle with the bouy. I asume from your desciption and logic that the observer was just on the course side of the bouy, even if they progressed to the start side in their attempt to turn and avoid you.

 

The motor boat was to all intents and purposes part of the course. Most have learnt the hard way in W/L starts and encountering the Start boat that you have to line up on the lay line and if you start high you can get shut out. Deal with it.

 

"Hoping that a gap would open up" aint going to happen and nor should it in any half arsed fleet.

 

I guess the worrying thing is that with so many uninsured, a half decent ding and the one in the right effectively owns the other guys boat? 15-20k each damage to two boats is not a major.

 

Do think they should have checked all were ok though. Its normal to go back and put even a possum out of its missery if it gets messmerised.

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You left it too late to call the bail out clearly. Safety and in fact racing prudence says it is much better to bail early (or slow right down and go in #2 if this is an option) than have a ding or tangle with the bouy. I asume from your desciption and logic that the observer was just on the course side of the bouy, even if they progressed to the start side in their attempt to turn and avoid you.

 

The motor boat was to all intents and purposes part of the course. Most have learnt the hard way in W/L starts and encountering the Start boat that you have to line up on the lay line and if you start high you can get shut out. Deal with it. .

 

sorry brucey but they are not part of the course...well maybe in your imagination....but not in any sense of the rules. They are a motorboat. This is not up for debate. Start boat would have been a completely different story.

 

"Hoping that a gap would open up" aint going to happen and nor should it in any half arsed fleet.

.

 

agree but it might have.... thats why we called it "hoping". .... normally if shut out you can go above the pin and then go back..... unless there is a MOTORBOAT hanging around in the way, with motors in gear and moving. That is the only reason we hit the pin, was to avoid a much worse collision. We did not hit the pin in an attempt to barge in.

 

 

I guess the worrying thing is that with so many uninsured, a half decent ding and the one in the right effectively owns the other guys boat? 15-20k each damage to two boats is not a major..

 

quite frankly, if you dont have at least 3rd party insurance then dont bother coming racing. There is risk involved. Deal with it.

 

 

 

Do think they should have checked all were ok though. Its normal to go back and put even a possum out of its missery if it gets messmerised.
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My take on some of the recent comments on this is that there are many who apparently think is it appropriate to have a MOTORBOAT, with a poor lookout, situated a boatlength from the start of a yacht race, who does not need to keep out of the yachts way?

 

REALLY???

Apparently.

 

Brucey doesn't count as that only his sh*t stirring moniker, but some of the other replies are a surprise and somewhat disturbing.

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My take on some of the recent comments on this is that there are many who apparently think is it appropriate to have a MOTORBOAT, with a poor lookout, situated a boatlength from the start of a yacht race, who does not need to keep out of the yachts way?

 

REALLY???

Apparently.

 

Brucey doesn't count as that only his sh*t stirring moniker, but some of the other replies are a surprise and somewhat disturbing.

 

Dont mean to b awkwid just how I see it KM. Would you prefer that with sugar and icecream sir?

 

Somewhat disturbing? That a boat could have a collision with an essencialy stationary boat and then say ya should have got outa my way? WTF? So if the observer cant sit at the pin for fear of collision where should they sit? Bet they are 15m+ away from now on though!!

 

U must b Joe King? Really???

 

But seriously if rod-b was comming from the start area with every one else as he says, the only way you can pickup the bouy and hit the observer is if they are in the perfect place to observe the start, exactly where you would expect them to b.

 

Bloody luck you didnt have to repair the boat really,

 

dadoung dadounk (sound) "Bloody Possums"

 

Insurance? I would guess from the issues I have heard of in the fleet, that 20-30% had no cover at all when racing?

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Easy fix,

Start the multi's hour earlier (before the mono's/startboat etc get out there).

Start line is from the Flag on the start tower to some headland over the over side.

Wait for the complaints when the headland or ODM fails to get out of the way of a boat starting... :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

Now seriously, thats not what anyone wants. Skippers need to remember a few things.... first it's normally volunteers running the show and if they get abused they prob won't be back. Secondly the RNZYS has been a mono club for years and that is what they are used to. Multi's need to make allowances as they get used to dealing with a completely different type of boat. Finally if it looks like your going to get shut out bail out in time so you miss everyone allowing for a multi's large turning circle.

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Whether the boat should have been there or not is somewhat inconsequential as far as I can tell. The fact is it was there and from what you've said, you left your bail out to late to avoid a collision. At the end of the day you were in a prick of a spot, relying on A) Other boats to bear away so you could make the start or B) a stationary power vessel who had not seen you needing to take significant and immediate avoiding action to avoid a collision.

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There is nothing in the SI's, unless there was a special notice listed on the board on the day, that says an official boat maybe used for spotting at the start or maybe in the position it was. So the boat wasn't there on official notified business so for all intents and purposes it was no different than Mr Rangi Random in his Riv.

The boat was underway as described by very old and well known Regs.

The boat doesn't appear to be claiming 'restricted in it's ability to manoeuvre' nor 'Knot under command', again 2 old and well knows Regs.

 

So the boat was a power boat that was underway in every definition of the Col Regs.

There appears to be zero official notification a boat maybe stationed in that position on official business so the boat is effectively 'just a boat' like any other of the 1000's in Akl. Whether it had 'Squaddy', any other YC, Harbourmaster or even Police written on the side is irrelevant and inadmissible.

 

The yacht was sailing and under sail only power.

 

In the legal sense - Power gives way to sail. The powerboat was in the wrong.

 

Baring in mind that is from what I'd heard and been told rather than seeing it myself. From what I've heard there is little dispute as to what actually happened, the dispute is over who did bad or did the most bad. No one is 100% at fault, it is proportional.

 

What surprises me is that so many seem to either knot know or don't care about the very long standing and very basic rules and Regs. That really kicked in when someone above said I have 2 protest flags aboard but a sentence later basically said 'ignore the rules'.

 

In the 'yacht racing sense' maybe it is OK to have a boat arrive and spot in a semi-random manner. It's up to the competitors as to whether they want to allow random breaches of the Regs and along with that is which rule/s and when. There is a big risk if everyone ignores one they will ignore more and before long total anarchy rules.

 

If you do run along that line of argument it does raise the question of why a patrol boat, as it now can be called if we are ignoring a very basic and primary Reg, from one of NZ's premier and arguably most experienced YC's, allowed one of their vessel to put itself in a postion they should fully well know so fully expect a 'sh*t happens' event i.e. startline full of high speed vessels competing heavily for a good start and something goes a bit wrong on one or more boats. That situation should be nothing new to them, or most, YC's nor the crew provided to the vessel so should be expected to a knot insignificant degree. Expecting a situation like that knot to happen I would suggest is very naive on both the YC and the crew involved. Events like that are common place even at South Hicksville YC.

 

So even if you want to ignore the Rules and Regs it's still knot a good look to put a boat/crew into a situation which could and did result in what happened. And we haven't even got into what appears to be some lacking in the lookout dept.

 

I really do struggle with it being laid totally upon the yacht. What they did isn't unusual and many of the posters here have done the exact same thing. Most if knot all would have seen the same thing happen more than once. Sure in this case it was a higher speed vessel which meant it all went bad faster but surely only those who are brain dead don't know multis move fast, accelerate fast and can be a arse at time to both tack and stop or at least slow down quick. Surely you would expect any YC of the calibre of the one involved to be well aware of that fact and make allowances for it. If I cruised slowly across the bow of Vodaboat and caused a coming together 99% of the poster here would scream blue bloody murder if I tried to claim 'Oh I didn't know multis went a bit faster then leadswingers'.

 

That's what surprises me with many of the comments above from people I would have expected to know better and I know do know better.

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In the legal sense - Power gives way to sail. The powerboat was in the wrong.

 

Hang on this is not true in all cases.

 

There was in incident a few years back when a Tri was overtaking a launch in the harbour and clipped the stern of the launch. The Tri was found to be in the wrong as she was the overtaking vessel.

 

Seeing the the RIB was stationary at the time would TWU not be the overtaking vessel?

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I am not saying that TWU were in the right or wrong just that Power does not always give way to sail.

 

It was an accident. Sh1t happens.

 

Just to give you the source:

 

http://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/Publications-and-forms/Lookout/LookOutMar08.pdf

 

Quote: "A trimaran collided with a 13 metre charter vessel it was attempting to overtake during a harbour sailing race.

The trimaran was on port tack on a broadly south-easterly heading. It was

trailing two other trimarans that had passed the charter vessel well clear on

the starboard side. The charter vessel was steering a

broadly easterly-north-easterly course. The trimaran’s skipper was aware of the charter vessel, but allowed a converging course to continue. As the trimaran closed to about three metres from the

charter vessel’s port quarter, the skipper shouted to the charter vessel to keep clear as the trimaran was racing. The skipper of the charter vessel assessed that the trimaran was the give way vessel and assumed it would alter course and pass under his stern as the two leading trimarans had done. He decided not to take action to keep clear as he was concerned that any move to starboard might cause the vessel’s port

quarter to strike the trimaran. When the skipper of the trimaran

realised the charter vessel was maintaining course and speed, he altered

course into wind to try and slow down. He could not do this in time and the bow of the trimaran struck the port side of the charter vessel.

The collision caused minor damage to the trimaran and the charter vessel was undamaged.

 

1. The Collision Prevention Rules

(Maritime Rule Part 22) do not confer

special rights for vessels racing. Under

Rule 22.13 any vessel overtaking any

other must keep clear. This obligation

overrides Rule 22.18 which describes

responsibilities between vessels.

2. A vessel is considered to be

overtaking when it is coming up to

another vessel from a direction of more

than 22.5 degrees abaft its beam. This

covers an arc of 135 degrees centred on

the vessel’s stern and is the same arc

from which the stern light is visible.

3. If there is any doubt, skippers should

assume they are the overtaking vessel

and act accordingly.

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What a load of dribble :( /quote]

 

You guys can't have your cake and eat it can you?

Yacht racing and its rules do not sit well with the col regs do they?

 

 

If you relied on the col regs to sort out an insurance claim each boat would be fixing their own boat.

S2 for not keeping a proper look out

Rod-Boy for being a muppet and hitting what was basically a stationary boat and not avoiding a collision.

 

BUT hang on... Rod-Boy was racing in a yacht race run by a yacht club that I presume he is a member of?

 

How did he end up hitting his club's patrol boat?

Rod-Boy muffed his start and wasn't able to 'barge' at the pin.

The patrol boat for what ever reason doesn't get out of his way.

It's pretty obvious the patrol boat wasn't expecting Rodboy to end up where he did :clap:

 

Pretty much everybody on this board agrees that both parties have some fault..

 

The real issue here is that Rod Boy's sensibilities have been offended because the Squady didn't rush over and give him a hug.

Or god forbid, did he want the sqaudy to fork out and fix his boat with my membership fees?

 

Of course Rod Boy rushed over to see the patrol boat boys, bought them a beer, replaced their pace maker batteries and then helped them pull the boat out of the water and pay to get the pontoon repaired... Didn't he?

 

 

Couple of things that stick out to me.

>Multihulls do not have to be going flat knackers in the start box

Barging at 10kts boat speed at the pin is stupid and irresponsible as has been mentioned at length in other threads

 

>Some people seem to treat the your own yacht club(s) volunteers as the enemy WTF?

 

>Rod Boy really just needs a hug, because i don't think the squady should be fixing his boat

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Unless the powerboat was entered in the race the Race Rules don't apply. Assuming I'm right and it wasn't entered, and I think I might be ;), the race rules are totally irrelevant in this case.

 

SH-B. The powerboat, as I understand it, was stationary until it saw the boat coming at it. Then it started avoiding actions. I can't see any 'overtaking' action in that.

 

How did he end up hitting his club's patrol boat?
There was a boat (the 'club' and 'patrol boat' bit is inadmissible) sitting where it shouldn't have been. If it was observing the Regs it wouldn't have been there so nothing for Rod to hit. It's knot rocket science.

 

And to suggest boats can never f*ck up a start or manoeuvre is both weird and unrealistic.

 

Everyone need to lose the the Squaddy and patrol boat thinking, that is irrelevant.... unless the YC published a SI amendment saying they will or could have a boat stationed where it was. From what I've seen they didn't but don't know for sure. To much irrelevant Club fanboy and emotion action being brought into the discussion. But I'm sure the YC would be very happy to see so many of it's members sticking up for it, knot to sure if they would like to see so many suggesting the rules are flexible depending on who and when.

 

If the YC wants to keep it all in house that's fine and I don't really care but if looking at it in a non-emotional, non-club fanboy way it does seem pretty much clear the powerboat shouldn't have been where it was. If it wasn't there Rod-boy wouldn't have had anything to hit.

 

Did I really say 'what a load if dribble'??

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SH-B. The powerboat, as I understand it, was stationary until it saw the boat coming at it. Then it started avoiding actions. I can't see any 'overtaking' action in that.

If it was observing the Regs it wouldn't have been there so nothing for Rod to hit. It's knot rocket science.

 

So what are you saying here? It's Ok to hit a stationary boat?

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