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collisions on the harbour while racing


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So you are out for a sunday picnic sail, a boat is travelling at idle speed and on a collision course, you have right of way, absolutely no dispute, but he isn't looking at you, do you hold your course and hit him?

 

of course you hold course....., its most likely your mates bringing you some more MOUNT GAY RUM .......

for sure, I totally agree, an apportionment of blame is almost always required, I accept we didn't manage to avoid the collision either thats fine.

its the not taking any responsbility approach from the squadron that really gets up my nose.

So in a situation like this, do you report this to the harbour master ? maritime police ? do they then follow it up and further gather facts ?

 

Harbourmaster would be my first call, Maritime NZ is another option but that's kind of a serious escalation?

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Just to play devils advocate, where should a race committee place a patrol boat if the start line is too long to see end to end? I know with the kids dinghy racing we will have a rib on the pin end if need be.

 

understandable question,

 

to let you know how close to the pin they were, our boat was still connected to the pin which we had hit, when they collided with us. .... So they were within 9m of the pin.....

 

how about a sensible rule of keeping at least 2 boat widths clear of the pin ? ....oh....and keeping a good look out at all times :)

 

I also think that as racing yachts we need to understand that the race committee cant always get it right, and that accidents will happen. We appreciate them being out there in the right place 99% of the time.

 

But what the RNZYS squadron has done, and denny all responsibility is just the most arogant approach I have ever seen.

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Haha the squadrons response is crap... Dicks.

I was on TWU and the squaddy boat was only metres from the line facing across to Bayswater when we realised there was a situation happening. They certainly werent going west, And realistically as a boat in survey they werent showing any day shapes etc for a stationary boat so were "Underway" If they hadnt of accelerated out of the way we would have taken the whole cabin out...

 

 

 

Just to play devils advocate, where should a race committee place a patrol boat if the start line is too long to see end to end? I know with the kids dinghy racing we will have a rib on the pin end if need be.

 

I understand the need for an observer on the start line, but i would say on a reach start where there is a chance of boats being luffed above the Pin then give boats a bail out option. Funnily enough that night the two starts after us had boats shut out and that went around the pin. With starts boats have enough on just starting to worry about whethere a launch is smack in the middle too.

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Just to play devils advocate, where should a race committee place a patrol boat if the start line is too long to see end to end? I know with the kids dinghy racing we will have a rib on the pin end if need be.

If it is imperative a boat needs to be there, make the required notice and so on to make it a boat on station on official business which case it's something for the yacht to avoid under the yacht racing regs.

 

If it was having a nosey and checking up on dodgy starting multis it could have done that from a reasonable number of boat lengths back.

 

This incident does seem like a classic sh*t happens but it does also look as if someone needs to own up to their responsibility or at least some of it. A collision did take place and it shouldn't have.

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Wow, great thread.....

 

my 2 cents.

 

The collision regs have some really basic principals before you even get into the who give way to who

Keep a lookout (to assess risk of collision)

& travel at a safe speed

 

starting with those two,

 

the yacht saw the fizzboat, but risk of collision was either not assessed or done badly (how do i know that? there was a collision), were they travelling at a safe speed? well they were slowing down, but in the circumstance, there was a collision, so maybe not.

 

did the fizzboat keep a lookout? from the squadrons reply, basically no, because they only saw the yacht when it was too late (why was it too late? there was a collision), were they traveling at a safe speed? almost stopped so that is one thing in their favour.

 

Then you get to the rules, basically it sounds like a simple power gives way to sail. Because the fizz boat has already failed on the basic points above, they were unable to keep clear of the yacht. Although... stand on vessel (the yacht) is required to maintain course and speed. From what i can make out there was alteration of course, from trying to get through the line to heading up to avoid the other yachts, alteration yes, major amount? hard to tell.

 

To me both vessels got themselves into positions were they were unable to comply with the rules and resulted in a collision, given the close proximity of other vessels, neither could maneuver within their own ability to avoid a collision.

 

On strict liability i would hazard a guess of about 65:35% with the fizz carrying the majority.

 

However, the squadron driver should have known better, and if he didn't he shouldn't have been driving that boat.

Surely their basic role is being around yacht races, and yes they may get close but they should be keeping a far better watch than joe average boatie, and be vary aware of how things can change, and with mulit's how fast they can change. Given that, I would up my blame rating to 80/20 against the fizzboat.

 

The reply from the squadron should be an embarrassment to them. It is lawyers gobbledygook.

 

This should be reported to the harbourmaster (unsure if this is mandatory under the Auckland bylaws, it would be in wellington) and under the Maritime Transport Act you are required to report this to Maritime NZ. If nothing else your insurance company may want to know if this has happened and what the outcome is.

 

If memory serves me correctly it was a also Squadron RIB that raced out of Westhaven at 20 knots and collected, i think a kakayer, they said that wasn't their fault either.

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One of the lessons that were given to boat drivers in the AC events was that if you were the driver of a RIB, launch, or mark boat and the yachts came close, was to go into neutral and take your hands off the throttle and helm.

In that way you become an obstruction the boats have to avoid.

 

really?? maybe if you managed to get an anchor down in time...

 

failing that, follow those instruction and hoist a flag that says " I don't know what I'm doing, please don't hurt me" :twisted:

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Great post Grant.

 

Yes it is a Reg that any collision on the Akl Harbour is reported to the HM's office and the MSA as well I think. Also think the HM was supposed to be informed at the time if any vessel involved was or had become 'unseaworthy', but that probably applies more to commercial then recreational.

 

failing that, follow those instruction and hoist a flag that says " I don't know what I'm doing, please don't hurt me" :twisted:

Or maybe hold up a big teddy bear and cry Mummy :) :)

 

If you aren't anchored you are underway, taking your hands off the wheel means diddly squat. But then the AC does run AC rules and regs so it's likely there was allowances in their SI's to take patrol boats into account.

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One of the lessons that were given to boat drivers in the AC events was that if you were the driver of a RIB, launch, or mark boat and the yachts came close, was to go into neutral and take your hands off the throttle and helm.

In that way you become an obstruction the boats have to avoid.

 

Further to my last post let's revisit this.

Having had another glass of wine I'll drop any pretense at diplomacy and give it my full attention. What a crock of s#%t.

But given that Maritime NZ went along with the AC organizers (oh yes the RNZYS, how topical!) and exempted all the chase boat drivers from having to meet NZ law and have a captains ticket, in spite of driving boats capable of 50 knots plus in NZ's busiest harbor, during the busiest period of boating activity in NZ's history can we really be surprised that said chase boat drivers, when presented with a close quarters situation, were instructed to close their eyes until the danger had passed?

Reads like so something out of "hitchhikers guide to the galaxy" (Peril sensitive sunglasses blacking out vision till the danger passes!)

There you go, rant over.

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Interesting read,

 

I guess what I find odd about this is that there has been a collision between a yacht club patrol boat and a boat starting in one of it's races which has resulted in damage and regardless of the rights and wrongs of the whole thing the club that holds it's self up as "New Zealand's senior yacht club. Its enormous reputation on the international yachting scene ensures that the Squadron occupies a position of high prestige, nationally and internationally" has not managed to get the parties together and resolve it over a beer.

 

the quote "I am not angry just disappointed" comes to mind

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Interesting read,

 

I guess what I find odd about this is that there has been a collision between a yacht club patrol boat and a boat starting in one of it's races which has resulted in damage and regardless of the rights and wrongs of the whole thing the club that holds it's self up as "New Zealand's senior yacht club. Its enormous reputation on the international yachting scene ensures that the Squadron occupies a position of high prestige, nationally and internationally" has not managed to get the parties together and resolve it over a beer.

 

the quote "I am not angry just disappointed" comes to mind

 

 

Spot on the money...

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Mikey, i can understand youre pissed off about the crash but you do need to take a bit of responsability here. Either you altered course at the last minute giving very little chance for the squadron chase boat to keep clear or if you held your course for any length of time then surely you would have noticed that you were in a prick of a spot and were going to get squeezed out and bailed earlier. your decision (in your own words) to carry on and hope for a gap to open up, when you knew the squaddy boat was there and just yell at them to get out of the way just in case the jesus gap didnt open up for you and you were going to have to go above the line- might have been the decision that caused the crash.

look at it from their perspective, they were sighting the line, thats their job on the starts, in the same spot they normally would, counting down from 20, look back see no one heading at them, look down the line again then someone who has completley fu*ked up their start sudenly heads up straight at them doing 10(?) odd kts at the last minute.

I wasnt there and didnt see it but have heard the story from a few people and it sounds like you had a bit of a shocker of a start and are now palming the total responsabilty off on someone else and taking zero for yourself.

Sure they were too close but the fact is they were actually clear of the startline. if they had been anchored which they just as well could have been, or any other boat for that mater, fishing, or a lump of land, wharf(...) then who woud be blamed and the damage would have been alot worse. I understand the chase boat got alot of damage too, a popped pontoon.

Quote from marshy who was on board- If they hadnt of accelerated out of the way we would have taken the whole cabin out...

I would say there actions might have saved alot of damage.

Im not trying to say it was all your fault or that the squaddys resonse or actions are OK just chucking a different perspective into the mix. there are allways 2 sides to every story.

I would think taking zero responsabilty yourself is a bad look. they fixed their damage, you fixed yours, maybe a disapointing response from them, but maybe your attitude towards it could have been better too.

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Mikey, i can understand youre pissed off about the crash but you do need to take a bit of responsability here. Either you altered course at the last minute giving very little chance for the squadron chase boat to keep clear or if you held your course for any length of time then surely you would have noticed that you were in a prick of a spot and were going to get squeezed out and bailed earlier.

 

hardly altered course appart from tyring to slow down

 

look at it from their perspective, they were sighting the line, thats their job on the starts, in the same spot they normally would, counting down from 20, look back see no one heading at them,

 

they were actually not in line with the line, but on the otherside, so if they were doing their job sighting the line I struggle to see how

 

look down the line again then someone who has completley fu*ked up their start sudenly heads up straight at them doing 10(?) odd kts at the last minute.

I wasnt there and didnt see it but have heard the story from a few people and it sounds like you had a bit of a shocker of a start and are now palming the total responsabilty off on someone else and taking zero for yourself.

 

correct you were not there. It was a good start, pushed it right to the limit and didn't quite fit. there was a hole 2nd row of starters that came in behind us as well, ....should i menntion that the chase boat almost hit one of them as well....all the people that saw this and are witnesses have said "what the f*ck was that chase boat doing there....

 

Im not trying to say it was all your fault or that the squaddys resonse or actions are OK just chucking a different perspective into the mix. there are allways 2 sides to every story.

I would think taking zero responsabilty yourself is a bad look.

 

I have never said that it was not partly our fault, it takes 2 boats to collide. Its the NO RESPONSIBILITY here attitude of the squadron that I see as the issue here ......

 

they fixed their damage, you fixed yours, maybe a disapointing response from them, but maybe your attitude towards it could have been better too.

 

my attitude was rather nice up untill the point that they said .......no responsibility of ours

 

You mention stereotypes at the squaddy(my wife still works there and i know most of the guys), well, be carefull that you dont sterotype multihull sailers- everyone must get out of our way cos we cant manoever and are out of control....

 

....... multihulls are meant to be out of controll....thats what makes them fun ;)

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I would think taking zero responsabilty yourself is a bad look. they fixed their damage, you fixed yours, maybe a disapointing response from them, but maybe your attitude towards it could have been better too.

 

Not sure its clear to all here, this actually happened 2 months ago. I know rod_boy has attempted reaosnable communication/discussion with the squadron over this length of time. There has been plenty of oportunity to handle this better from the RNZYS end, and having seen the correspondence myself, I fail to see how, until now, rod_boy could have been more reasonable.

 

So you are out for a sunday picnic sail, a boat is travelling at idle speed and on a collision course, you have right of way, absolutely no dispute, but he isn't looking at you, do you hold your course and hit him?

 

Of course not, but that is not even the same situation. May be talking the same regs, but it is so far from the situation being discussed it was a pointless waste of typing.

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Remind me to tell you about the spherical chickens in a vacuum one day.

 

 

By reducing it to the absurd I was trying to make a point, oh well, gotta go sit through a boring sales meeting now, see you all later in the day.

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In the words of the squadron

 

 

This matter has been discussed in General Committee and with the Commodore.

 

He confirms that the Squadron cannot accept any responsibility for the accident.

 

It was unfortunate that it occurred and we have made changes in our operations to try to ensure it does not occur again.

 

Interesting choice of words. "do not" or "will not" would also have fitted (and would have given a different emphasis), wonder what discussion was behind the decision to run with "cannot".

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Mikey, i can understand youre pissed off about the crash but you do need to take a bit of responsability here. Either you altered course at the last minute giving very little chance for the squadron chase boat to keep clear or if you held your course for any length of time then surely you would have noticed that you were in a prick of a spot and were going to get squeezed out and bailed earlier. your decision (in your own words) to carry on and hope for a gap to open up, when you knew the squaddy boat was there and just yell at them to get out of the way just in case the jesus gap didnt open up for you and you were going to have to go above the line- might have been the decision that caused the crash.

look at it from their perspective, they were sighting the line, thats their job on the starts, in the same spot they normally would, counting down from 20, look back see no one heading at them, look down the line again then someone who has completley fu*ked up their start sudenly heads up straight at them doing 10(?) odd kts at the last minute.

I wasnt there and didnt see it but have heard the story from a few people and it sounds like you had a bit of a shocker of a start and are now palming the total responsabilty off on someone else and taking zero for yourself.

Sure they were too close but the fact is they were actually clear of the startline. if they had been anchored which they just as well could have been, or any other boat for that mater, fishing, or a lump of land, wharf(...) then who woud be blamed and the damage would have been alot worse. I understand the chase boat got alot of damage too, a popped pontoon.

Quote from marshy who was on board- If they hadnt of accelerated out of the way we would have taken the whole cabin out...

I would say there actions might have saved alot of damage.

Im not trying to say it was all your fault or that the squaddys resonse or actions are OK just chucking a different perspective into the mix. there are allways 2 sides to every story.

I would think taking zero responsabilty yourself is a bad look. they fixed their damage, you fixed yours, maybe a disapointing response from them, but maybe your attitude towards it could have been better too.

Thats pretty much how I see it too. Sounds like They were near stationary and try'd to avoid collision when they realised twu fucked up there start. Twu didn't avoid collision at all. Is getting a good start worth having a crash? No. Avoid collision at all costs and sort out the issue later off the water

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