Guest Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Please point out where I said or even came close to suggesting hitting any boat, parked or knot, is OK in anyway? Some of you need to learn some reading comprehension.It appears this fine comment needs repeating.....................Some of you need to learn some reading comprehension. TWICE!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 you infer from your statement that the RIB was was breaking a col reg by being stationary. Which one? If it was observing the Regs it wouldn't have been there so nothing for Rod to hit. It's knot rocket science. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 No they weren't breaking the Col Regs by being stationary. They broke the Col Regs by being a powerboat that didn't give way to a sail boat. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Unless the powerboat was entered in the race the Race Rules don't apply. Assuming I'm right and it wasn't entered, and I think I might be , the race rules are totally irrelevant in this case. SH-B. The powerboat, as I understand it, was stationary until it saw the boat coming at it. Then it started avoiding actions. I can't see any 'overtaking' action in that. How did he end up hitting his club's patrol boat?There was a boat (the 'club' and 'patrol boat' bit is inadmissible) sitting where it shouldn't have been. If it was observing the Regs it wouldn't have been there so nothing for Rod to hit. It's knot rocket science. And to suggest boats can never f*ck up a start or manoeuvre is both weird and unrealistic. Everyone need to lose the the Squaddy and patrol boat thinking, that is irrelevant.... unless the YC published a SI amendment saying they will or could have a boat stationed where it was. From what I've seen they didn't but don't know for sure. To much irrelevant Club fanboy and emotion action being brought into the discussion. But I'm sure the YC would be very happy to see so many of it's members sticking up for it, knot to sure if they would like to see so many suggesting the rules are flexible depending on who and when. If the YC wants to keep it all in house that's fine and I don't really care but if looking at it in a non-emotional, non-club fanboy way it does seem pretty much clear the powerboat shouldn't have been where it was. If it wasn't there Rod-boy wouldn't have had anything to hit. Did I really say 'what a load if dribble'?? I do believe you are dribbling around in a circle. If you want to enforce the col regs; Rod Boy is in the wrong in that he has not avoided a collision he saw from some way away. Sure the fizz boat driver would get a slap as well for not keeping a proper look out! It would seem the fact that he was 'yacht racing' clouded Rod Boy's better judgement Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 From rule 22 22.17 Action by stand-on vessel (1) If one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other must keep its course and speed. (2) As soon as it becomes apparent to the stand-on vessel that the vessel required to give way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with this Part – (a) it may take action to avoid collision by its manoeuvre alone; and ( if it is a power-driven vessel in a crossing situation, if the circumstances of the case allow, it must not alter course to port for a vessel on its own port side. (3) When, from any cause, the stand-on vessel finds itself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, it must take whatever action will best avoid collision. Apply. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 No they weren't breaking the Col Regs by being stationary. They broke the Col Regs by being a powerboat that didn't give way to a sail boat. From the col regs: (i) The word “underway” means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground. TWU was the overtaking boat... Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Col, by invoking that rule, you have already accepted that the powerboat failed in its responsibilty to keep clear in the first instance. So the powerboat was at fault initially for failing to keep clear, RB then failed to avoid the collision which would never have happened if the powerboat had done what it was supposed to. As mentioned before - an apportionment of blame, but I would go with the bulk of it lying with the powerboat for causing the situation in the first place. But if I read the earlier posts correctly RB's beef isn't with the fact that he must shoulder a portion of the blame (he has accepted that here already) but the position the Squadron took in appointing themselves judge and jury, can't remember it all exactly but along the lines of "we have decided". Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Kitty 252 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 No they weren't breaking the Col Regs by being stationary. They broke the Col Regs by being a powerboat that didn't give way to a sail boat. From the col regs: (i) The word “underway” means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground. TWU was the overtaking boat... From what I have read, and I'll say again that it's hard to get all the facts in this forum, the launch was facing toward the bridge and TWU. TWU is only overtaking if is more than 22.5 degrees aft of the beam. So unless the launch was facing away from the approaching race fleet, TWU can't be overtaking. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 No they weren't breaking the Col Regs by being stationary. They broke the Col Regs by being a powerboat that didn't give way to a sail boat. From the col regs: (i) The word “underway” means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground. TWU was the overtaking boat... Only if they were approaching from more than 22 deg abaft the beam of the powerboat, my understanding is they were nearly bow to bow, you can't overtake a vessel you are approaching nearly head on. Now had the powerboat rotated itself so it was presenting its stern to TWU then you would be correct. Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Kitty 252 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 And I thought we ruled out overtaking about 4 pages ago anyway? Link to post Share on other sites
ScottiE 174 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Forgive me - our office a/c has been down all week but frankly I find this whole discussion just bloody strange. How did we get from discussing this if a racing yacht that is essentially racing in a straight line, is hit by a motor boat that has its motors in gear is there any situation where the motor boat is not at fault ?you can assume, that both vessels did all possible to avoid the collision and the collision was minimised thanks to the power boats efforts, but the collision did still occur. then this what if the motor boat had been manouvering around the yachts start area and knew there was a yacht race about to start, and then after the start they got caught up in some yachts that were forced to sail high of the race start line pin ? then this 15 seconds before start yacht was the windward boat at the start line. another yacth was to leeward of the yacht and holding the yacht high of the start line. The yacht started slowing down, all sails were eased to reduce speed. Yacht is heading down the harbour away from the harbour bridge. 10 seconds from start, Hoping that a gap would appear on the start line the yacht continues to slow and also started to look for an exit strategy. 5 seconds from start, With no room to leeward the yacht had to either, hit the start line pin , or go above the pin. the yacht would have gone above the pin but there was a MOTOR BOAT positioned just past the pin slightly to windward, (not anchored but drifting with motors on). The MOTORBOAT was positioned facing the harbour bridge. We yelled at the MOTORBOAT to get out of there, but got no response. The yacht then hits the start pin, with no room to leeward as another yacht was still there. The MOTOR BOAT has now attempted to move realising their predicament, and is moving forwards whilst turning to starboard. The YACHTS port bow makes significant contact with the rear starboard quarter of the MOTOR BOAT, as the MOTORBOATS rear quarter swings around. YACHT is damaged, and MOTORBOAT makes no attempt to say sorry, see if everyone is ok, or follow up on the incident with the yacht. And finally this What disgusts me most about this, is that it was a RNZYS squadron chase boat that hit us, and they seem to think that they have absolutely no responsibility for the inccident. So its completely ok for a RNZYS chase boat to motor through the start area whenever they want and hit starting yachts ! BULLSHIT !!! where is the common sense people ! These guys should know better. There’s just too many hypothetical situations in there to deal with credibly But I also find it strange that as a consequence of an incident an organisation “made changes in our operations to try to ensure it does not occur again.” but “cannot accept any responsibility for the accident.” Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Kitty 252 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I'm just surprised that so many crew user's seem to think that any boat doesn't have to follow the Maritime Rules. Even if the guy driving it does have RNZYS underpants. And a tie. And a bungee? burgie? burgeexxx? you know, the little flag thing! Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Kitty 252 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Forgive me - our office a/c has been down all week http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&source ... lSLf-DG2GQ But Scottie you have the nack! How can a broken A/C be a problem? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 From what I have read, and I'll say again that it's hard to get all the facts in this forum, the launch was facing toward the bridge and TWU. TWU is only overtaking if is more than 22.5 degrees aft of the beam. True think that was the case, facing towards the bridge and drifting. They collided when the RIB tried in vain to get out of the way. TWU hit the RIB on the aft end of it's tube. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I do believe you are dribbling around in a circle. Yes it looks that way. Silly me for thinking NZ's school system would teach everyone how to read. Oh well, it's been fun yet very spooky. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 SHB , the powerboat was facing the bridge, TWU was headed in the opposite direction, try as I might I can't make that into an overtaking situation. Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Kitty 252 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 From what I have read, and I'll say again that it's hard to get all the facts in this forum, the launch was facing toward the bridge and TWU. TWU is only overtaking if is more than 22.5 degrees aft of the beam. True think that was the case, facing towards the bridge and drifting. They collided when the RIB tried in vain to get out of the way. TWU hit the RIB on the aft end of it's tube. So if TWU is approaching anywhere in a 112.5 degree angle either side of the RIB's bow, the RIB is the give way boat. Doesn't matter if the RIB is drifting, floating sinking or motoring backwards at 20 knots. TWU will shoulder some of the blame, but probably knot a whole lot. The other point is, under NZ maritime law TWU is the "stand on vessel" and is supposed to hold course & speed so the RIB can take the correct action to avoid a collision. TWU's problem is they are only supposed to do that until it is apparent that the RIB cannot avoid a collision with it's own actions, then TWU is supposed to save the day by doing something clever. (yelling f*&k off plonker obviously not clever enough this time) Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 No they weren't breaking the Col Regs by being stationary. They broke the Col Regs by being a powerboat that didn't give way to a sail boat. From the col regs: (i) The word “underway” means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground. TWU was the overtaking boat... brucey your so wrong.... Squadron 2 was heading west, towards the bridge 2. A vessel is considered to be overtaking when it is coming up to another vessel from a direction of more than 22.5 degrees abaft its beam. This covers an arc of 135 degrees centred on the vessel’s stern and is the same arc from which the stern light is visible. TWU was not the overtaking boat untill the squadron boat altered course to try and avoid us. Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Kitty 252 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 TWU still doesn't become an overtaking boat when the RIB turns away. You can't suddenly change you obligation by changing aspect while already in a close quarters situation. Pity, sometimes that would be handy huh? Link to post Share on other sites
rigger 47 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 From my understanding of the rules relating to the situation descibed: - the yacht was not overtaking the power boat - powerboat must giveway - as the yacht was the stand on vessel it had to maintain course and speed - the yacht slowed down and did alter course to give other yachts room and thus did not act as a stand on vessel should in relation to the powerboat - the power boat's owners admitted that the crew / skipper did not keep an adequate lookout - all vessel must keep an adequate lookout, the powerboat failed here. - the collision must be reported to Maritime NZ, Both vessels failed to comply fully with the rules - the powerboats failures were greater hence more fault for the collision would be attributed to the powerboat. Remember that the col regs only consider 2 vessels - not multiple vessel situations. Link to post Share on other sites
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