collisions on the harbour while racing

[Guest]

Yes I need a hug, somebody please.....

 

I have been interested in the responses that have been posted, and thank you all for your input.

 

I am going to establish how the blame should be apportioned by talking with the harbour master, purely out of interest, and for us all to learn.....I will keep you posted.

 

I agree that hitting the boat of the organising yacht club is not a good look, but that alone does not make it our fault.

 

Note that I have never said that it was 100% the squadrons fault either.

 

I am not chasing anyone or asking anyone to fix the boat and never was. The only dissapointment, and gripe I have had, is to do with the squadrons response which said that they cannot accept any responsibility.

 

It is good that squadron apparenly have reviewed their procedures to make sure that such incidents will be less likely to happen again.

[Clive 13]

... na I think I will stay out of this one....

[Guest]

(yelling f*&k off plonker obviously not clever enough this time)

Careful, you get the impression many here probably think that's a valid alternative to a 720

 

There ya go rod_boy. Redeem at your leisure and pick some hot chick rather than some hairy Trevor

[Guest Brucey]

No they weren't breaking the Col Regs by being stationary. They broke the Col Regs by being a powerboat that didn't give way to a sail boat.

 

From the col regs:

(i) The word “underway” means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground.

 

TWU was the overtaking boat...

 

brucey your so wrong....

 

Squadron 2 was heading west, towards the bridge

 

 

Hey dont mix your Bruces nimrod.

 

 

Now a cynic could say that the RNZYS have "taken steps....." by sending their Youth Training Manager out to remove the TWU risk.... on another start line a little later... but far be it from me to suggest such nonsense.

 

But really RB this is not about who may be "legaly" right or wrong, you may be in the right if you ram a fiz boat out drift fishing but it doesnt make it right in any way.

 

Could I respectfully suggest that if you carry on driving around without a lookout or just standing on because you may think you have right of way, it is just a matter of time before you have a collision......

 

or two!!!!!!!

 

nimrod

[Guest]

You got a response from a Harbour Master on page 3 of this thread.

Personal comment not official obviously.

[Guest]

Hey dont mix your Bruces nimrod.

 

 

Now a cynic could say that the RNZYS have "taken steps....." by sending their Youth Training Manager out to remove the TWU risk.... on another start line a little later... but far be it from me to suggest such nonsense.

 

But really RB this is not about who may be "legaly" right or wrong, you may be in the right if you ram a fiz boat out drift fishing but it doesnt make it right in any way.

 

Could I respectfully suggest that if you carry on driving around without a lookout or just standing on because you may think you have right of way, it is just a matter of time before you have a collision......

 

or two!!!!!!!

 

nimrod

 

 

at least you have a slight sense of humour brucey, sorry for the identity mix up.

 

and this is all about who is legally right.

 

we were not racing in a reckless way, and this will happen again.

 

maybe next time it will be 2 or 3 boats that are forced high of the pin, and someone will be seriously injured......then it will be very important that there is legally somebody who is more at fault than the other.

 

 

if we had swithced the boats say, and TWU was vodafone then I would suggest that there would have been people in hospital.

 

thank goodness this was not the case.

 

And if anyone says that vodafone would never end up in a situation like that then they are simply nieve.

 

but thanks for your constructuvie comments brucey .......

[samin 0]

Note that I have never said that it was 100% the squadrons fault either.

 

I am not chasing anyone or asking anyone to fix the boat and never was. The only dissapointment, and gripe I have had, is to do with the squadrons response

 

Mikey, I dont wanna drag this out any more, however can you please post your first letter to the RNZYS for the readers entertainment?

 

Just to put their reply into perspective.

[Guest]

Mikey, I dont wanna drag this out any more, however can you please post your first letter to the RNZYS for the readers entertainment?

 

Just to put their reply into perspective

 

I think I see what you are getting at here sam, and fair enough, the 4 questions I put to the squadron were

 

"

Questions :

A) what was the squadron boat doing so close to the pin ?

Why did the chase boat not move when it was clear that it was in the way ?

C) Who was driving the chase boat ?

D) Has the chase boat completed an incident report for this collision ?

E) Will the squadron accept responsibility for this incident and assist with repairs ?

 

"

 

so question E) could imply I was looking for someone to fix my boat but assistance can take many forms, even morale support is assistance.

 

 

if they had have responded and said that they do recognise that both boats were partly at fault for the collision but as damage had occured to both vessels they would be unable to assist with our repairs, then it would have been alot easier to stomach.

 

its amazing how the wording of a response can really change the tone.

[samin 0]

Mikey, I dont wanna drag this out any more, however can you please post your first letter to the RNZYS for the readers entertainment?

 

Just to put their reply into perspective

 

I think I see what you are getting at here sam, and fair enough, the 4 questions I put to the squadron were...

 

so you're not prepared to post the complete unedited first letter you sent them?

 

I really think you have too after making such a fuss about their reply?

[Guest]

sam,

 

if I post the first letter to them ,

 

and then their reply, where they stated what they thought happened,

 

and then my further letter questioning it,

 

and then their reply, where they changed their story a little,

 

then everyone will simply be rather confused.

 

I have tried to portray the middle ground of facts here that are most likely the truth.

 

 

remember, everything you read on the internet is not true..... and this is simply a hypothetical situation.....

 

 

dont you have a boat to build or something ?

[Unicorn 6]

In this case I think the yacht has a large degree of responsibility.

 

The yacht adjusted course (some time earlier as it headed to the line) to a heading where a collision became inevitable at the speed the powerboat was proceeding, even if the powerboat altered course. The yacht thus entered onto a collision course without giving the powerboat time to avoid the collision, at the speed at which it was proceeding.

[ScottiE 174]

But Scottie you have the nack! How can a broken A/C be a problem?

 

Actually - the real problem lies with the landlord and I understand my solution to that problem is still illegal in this country, punishable by a fairly long stint 'at her majesty's pleasure'!

[Guest]

Has anybody had a look at their insurance policy to check the implications of admitting fault to a collision without approval from their insurance company? Pretty sure all have them have a clause along the lines of "You must obtain our approval before you deny, admit, negotiate or settle any claim"

Do you think the squadrons insurance company would allow them to admit to liability when evidently both skippers breached colregs resulting in this collision.

Rod Boy, rather than getting upset about the squadron denied all liability, perhaps we should consider why this was? ie. would this give their insurance providers grounds to deny all or part of a claim?

[Guest]

Agree Dan, that's why I mentioned the response was most likely more a 'legal' type one rather than what they might have really wanted to say. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it was just that.

 

Anywho -

 

I was pondering this from a technical point of view so decided to have a bit of a suss at some points, just out of interest, nothing more so don't read this in with the previous pages or as an argument for or against anyone, even if this case maybe used as purely an example.

 

Sussed ISAF for any case studies, recommendations, requirements etc from the 'yacht racing' side of it only.

- Doesn't appear to be any rulings or case studies with regards to a yacht verse a official boat, bar some with regard to Bruce and the windsurfer. Nor is there anything of any substance in the Rules.

 

- According to the Sailing Regs if the powerboat was a yacht and both were racing, the Sailing Rules override Col Regs. Knot so much override but are parallel with a few added bits relating to the way yachts move and are likely to do so while yacht racing.

 

- After sunset it is recommend the Col regs take precedence over the YR rules. But doesn't appear mandatory. As a FYI - changing to Col Regs after sunset seems to be the default position for most clubs in NZ if the race will extended into the dark by a fair amount i.e. I doubt Wed night races do but haven't checked.

 

- 'Official boats', while knot mandatory in all cases, but is in some special events and classes, it is highly recommended to be listed in the SI's with regards to what they look like (flags displayed, shape, size etc), where they will be and doing what when. It looks as if this is added to the SI's it can very easily be attached to the word 'May' as in 'An Official boat may be stationed at XXX', which then means it can be put there when required rather than everytime.

 

- All the ISAF templates for SI's etc do have a section that related to 'Official boats'. Note here a 'coach boat' or 'support boat' is knot an official boat and is dealt with separately. Official boats are the Race management boats only.

 

It looks like the ISAF would prefer all SI's to have those details so in this case it would have been easy for the YC to have a boat there in an official capacity which would have changed it's status very clearly from a 'Rangi Random' to a official boat which then makes it something to officially miss by any race yacht i.e. it becomes part of the course I suppose you could say.

 

But in saying that it could be argued that what YC did in positioning the boat there is knot 'unofficial'. So I think it is something to be aware of, a boat just may arrive in a spot like it did in this hypothetical example. But it also appears there is no set in stone rulings as the whether the boat is an official, hence to be missed by the racing yachts, vessel if there is nothing in the SI's notifying the fleet. An interesting situation really so I tend to read that as unless there is something in the SI's specifically saying a boat maybe in XXXX (even if knot every time) it is probably best to treat any boat that does arrive as a Rangi Random even if it does have a YC name on the side. Thinking that mainly as if you did have a coming together and there isn't anything 'Official' on paper by a YC I'm pretty damn sure a Court will use the Col Regs instead. they have before.

 

So to any race officials reading that, make everyones life a bit tidier and easier by writing into your SI's what you may have any race management boat doing and when. I'd also add a sentence like 'The boat MAY KNOT always be stationed there', as we know many yachties are pretty damn stupid and need to be talked to as if they were 5 year olds.

 

Please note: The above is only my reading of it all. Feel free to use it in Court if you like but I doubt a defence of 'Knot Me said...' would carry much weight with many Judges and I know for a fact if you invoke me in many YC protest rooms it will work against you I have been known to embarrass the odd one.... but hey, they asked for it!!

[Guest]

KM, my take is that this incident was not between two yachts racing hence will be covered by colregs.

 

Rod Boy, did you ever consider a request for redress under 62.1 (a)?

[Guest]

Changing topics a little, there's some event going on off Manly beach today, looks like a big fleet of Optimists.

I counted about seven RIBs on the beach last night.

My question is - what do they all do? A million years ago when I was racing little boats as a kid there was A boat, normally with a parent or two on board. They went out and laid some marks, then came back and set a start, during the race they would motor to the finsh and set that line and take the finish. Sometimes if we were spoilt there'd be a second boat to pull drowning kids out of the water, but that was usually only for really big events.

So what do all those other boats do?

[Farrari 4]

Manly sailing club were running a learn to race development/coaching day yesterday (Thursday). Fri/Sat/Sun is meant to be a RSX/Techno regatta. My D1 is out of Opti's now so I don't follow it quite so closely.

 

It is not uncommon for bigger Opti regatta's to have lots of support boats. You could have the Start boat, pin end support plus course laying boat(s). In addition to that the national regattas will have on course judges. Then there is all the club support boats that come along to coach and support their kids. Most clubs bring at least one support boat depending on the size of the regatta. Sometimes we used to bring two with BBYC.

 

Just for a billy basic club race day we will have a minimum of two boats out. When we had bigger fleets we used to put out three or sometimes four.

[Guest]

KM, my take is that this incident was not between two yachts racing hence will be covered by colregs.

That was my initial thinking. As I pondered more I thought I'd go sussing and found the above so that does tend to suggest it is a pure Col Regs issue rather than a Race rules. But if the YC had the 'official boats' bit in the SI's, which they didn't from what I can see, this incident could or most likely would be a Race Rules one, which would change the game a bit.

 

All quite interesting and rather grey in spots with regards to official powerboats on the track. I'd say they are or should be regarded as an 'obstruction' but knot a 'continuing obstruction', unless they are anchored obviously.

[Guest]

Changing topics a little, there's some event going on off Manly beach today, looks like a big fleet of Optimists.

I counted about seven RIBs on the beach last night.

My question is - what do they all do?

If it was a Waterwise thing their rules say 1 safety boat for every 4 Optis out there.

 

If they are anything like the Waterwise I help with the chances are they could be crewed by Dads pretending to keep an eye on Optis while perving at yummy mummies, aka MILF's..... or so rumours have it

[Guest]

Doubt it was waterwise, they were half way to Kawau.