Saturday's Racing

[Guest]

I think John's point is that the boats at the front of the fleet are WAY less likely to score a DNF than he is, therefore over a series he is unfairly disadvantaged.

[Marshy 30]

But unless they have a blinder they struggle to win on handicap. To be honest they couldnt have had a better race than on saturday, and carried breeze the whole way around the track. Sailed well and still dont win on handicap so are they too disadvantaged?

 

Plus it swings both ways, Being such a diverse fleet we all have positives and negatives and as one who has raced on creepy and been at the other end of the fleet it has worked in our favour too as the breeze builds later in the day and you clean it out on handicap. Or tide turns etc. So yes out the back you can get different conditions and some favourable some not. The fact that on a long day like saturday you managed to finish inside the time limit and AE (who dont normally race so arent fully on the pace) didnt quite, means they must be pretty right?

[Clipper 343]

If we want to encourage more multis out, we need to split. The fast guys are already out racing, we need to encourage and mainatain the smaller/slower boats.

 

A quick study of racetrack shows that Charleston, 888 and Taeping are all around the 1.42 mark, Putiki is 0.90

 

If we take as an example, wired (1.1971) and capella V - Farr 1020 (0.7587) this is the same relative difference.

 

Would ANYONE consider racing a caning keeled 52' against a farr 1020? in the same division? Probably not.

 

The only reaons we do in the multis is that we don't have enuogh to split into 2 fleets. But if we don't split, we will NEVER have enough. Slower boats wont race. Catch 22.

[TimW 1]

But if you use 8.5 as the split, you are screwing Hyper, Katariana, Repeat Offender, Possibly Exodus, and basically any other Multi that is slower than the Top 8.5 Such as Deeds, Borderline, Attitude etc.

 

Plus read the comments the week before.

Who was Maddock racing against again, Attitudes main competition was TWU and Wolfy.

Also in a strong breeze Charleston is yet to beat the Top 8.5's.

 

The RNZYS aim to produce a 1.5 hour race for the Top boat, and at 2 hours they were close to that on Saturday.

Any boat has 2.5 more hours to finish after that, that seems incredibly fair, the main issue being the correct selection of the course.

 

How can you not be happy though John, you got second right?

And what happened to the idea that you are going to sail round Rangi in 25-30 Single handed, which is a 26 mile course, and yet you are saying 22 miles on Saturday is too long!

 

Anyway we had a great fleet of 14 boats out, and we really need to keep building on that.

Keeping everyone as happy as possible inevitably means the Fastest boats will sail slightly shorter races, and the Slower boats will sail slightly longer races than they might if we get enough boats for two really strong divisions.

But that can still be fair on everyone.

[Guest]

Congratulations to the race committee who realise it is not all about multihulls and shortened the course at an appropriate point for everyone. Unlucky he wind died but that's life.

 

There seems to be a lot of cardigan wearing labour supporters goinng blahh blahh here wanting to give everything to the people who need to work a bit harder. What has happened to the days when you got the rewards for putting in the effort! Now putiki is working away at things hence why they keep doing quite well on handicap results. The handicap system rewards improvement.

 

If you split the fleet into two divissions the fastest 8.5 is still going to smack the slowest wannabe 8.5. To split it to get this mythical fairness that labour seems to want you have to split it by handicap. This intern splits the 8.5 fleet and is this what you really want? Perhaps it is better to introduce some kind of tardy boat rule. I am not sure how to work it for handicap but it is easy for line and then no one ends up with a DNF.

[Clipper 343]

I'm always amazed at how some very nice people in 'real life' can come across as such arrogant f*cks online.

[El Toro 97]

You guys crack me up week in and week out.....

 

 

My only thoughts on the matter would be to burn the pieces of sh1t slower boats that are getting spanked as soon as they unfurl the jib, even by real boats from time to time, and tell the owners to go buy the fast boats that are for sale, which they probably bought in the first place. It is sometimes extremely painful to watch how slow some of them are in the uber light..and let s face it, we have quite a few light races.

 

Tell me thats not what your all thinking anyway but to afraid to say anyway!

[Clipper 343]

Tom, I know for a fact that is what some think for sure.

I am not on of them, probably as I race around in an old wooden boat that is a few years older than I am!

 

But if you use 8.5 as the split, you are screwing Hyper, Katariana, Repeat Offender, Possibly Exodus, and basically any other Multi that is slower than the Top 8.5 Such as Deeds, Borderline, Attitude etc.

 

Agree. I didn't suggest an 8.5 split, but as it would be good to kep the 8.5s together, use the top 8.5 as the split point.

As in, if you are an open boat faster than the deeds, go open, and if slower boat than the deeds (of any kind), race in the second division.

 

So 2 fleets, with the 8.5s and whoever else wnats to racing in the 'slow' fleet (for want of a better description - div 2?) and the fast boats in the other.

Longer course for the big boys, shorter course for the smaller boats and who would not be happy?

 

The issue seems to be figuring out what does the NZMYC want? Bigger fleets (including slower boats), or dwindling fleets, but a much faster fleet on average?

[Spencebox 5]

Jeez eh, I thought this discussion would rear it's head again. The only surprise is how long it's taken.

[Guest]

Jeez eh, I thought this discussion would rear it's head again. The only surprise is how long it's taken.

 

at least its not as bad as the summer series shocker where only the big boys finished and everyone else got a dnf.

[samin 0]

as of the last winter series race

 

The lowest rated A div boat is Savante, a First44.7

The highest rated B div boat is Force 11, a Young11

 

The win/loss summary (im guessing from when they race in the same div, i.e rum race etc) is 11 vs 6

 

There is always going to a crossover between divisions but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

 

Div S had 7 boats,

Div Q had 6 boats

Div R had 8 boats

 

M div had 14 starters, that would equal two divisions of 9 (8.5s plus Hyper) and 5 (the bigger faster boats). Not ideal, but at least the course length would suit everyone a bit better?

 

Seems a shame to be excluding the guys on smaller/older/more cruising orientated boats because they struggle to make the time limit whenever the forecasters muck it up slightly

[BelowPAR 0]

Whadda about two shorter races? Make the quicker boats do an extra leg? Chuck a split course in? two starts? Staggered markfoy? Pick your own start time and race to it? I would guess that the best racing Vodafone have had in the past two years was hunting down Camper.

You dont have even boats, so either your going to have a set finishing order and race to a handicap playing follow the leader. Or come up with something new.

Given that your racing the clock, im sure there would be a scenario where you can race the clock, but have boats you know you gotta get past etc, and the usual downsides (changing conditions breeze/tide and what not) are going to be no worse than it already is.

 

Is the latest America's Cup about multis or innovation? Or is it putting the two together

[johnMi 2]

Tim

I'm not complaining about the length of the race, just the possibility of not being able to finish, (and I don't think we should get into your shortcomings again about the singlehanded)

I'm not complaining about getting third (not second ) either, just complaining that AE was DNF'd because Charleston sailed a stunner on the day and the same could happen to me.

But that can still be fair on everyone.

Well my argument is it is NOT fair on the slower boats if they get DNF'd

You say AE did not enter... look at the results 'Akarana Express DNF'

 

MM

I thought we sailed well sat and thought 3rd place was bang on. It wasn't a blinder and definitely don't think I'm disadvantaged by the handicap. I accept the vagueries of different sailing conditions thru the race but not the fact that the faster you are the less chance of having the Described DNF

 

Pork Chop

It is sometimes extremely painful to watch how slow some of them are

I could say I sometimes find it extremely painful to think how some people can spend so much money on such an ugly boat, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Rev

I count TVS cos I have raced against her in the past and will no doubt in the future, don't want to go through this again

Seems we should ban tri's in light airs as they have an unfair advantage --- just joking...

Maybe wish ban cats in heavy airs ..... just joking

 

Why not just double the time of the first finisher

[Marshy 30]

Why not just double the time of the first finisher

 

 

I think thats pretty much what it is, but i guess from an organisational side (i.e from the club) the bar staff need to know a cut off, as do the Race Officials etc so that we are all back in the club within reasonable time and they have a definitive time for the cut off, prize giving etc for all other divisions, And i guess they will try better to scale the courses for the middle road boats rather than the top ones. (Its a bit different to the other divisions in that we have a broad range, but thats what makes it so interesting i feel)

 

With the target race times you should very easily be in within the time limits, and it really wont be a problem, Saturday was just a day that caught everyone out, and im sure there were a few people running late after that.

[Rental 1]

I tried to tell the crew we were not going to get 20kts but they would not listen !!

 

If there was 15-20kts as forcast it would have been a great course and a fantastic ride, sometimes life is just not fair but can we just deal with it and move on?

 

It was great day and fantastic that it was shortened at Orakei.

 

Don't split the fleets, it is a great all starting off the same line, lets spend the energy getting the other multi's out racing...Voom..GDT...NFS...Hooters...Whio....

[Clipper 343]

lets spend the energy getting the other multi's out racing...Voom..GDT...NFS...Hooters...Whio....

 

Anyone wnat to spend energy getting voom and whio out racing, is welcome down at little shoal bay this weekend to help with some sanding/grinding/painting/general repairs! We'll be out there as soon as the boats are ready.

 

GDT? Heellloooooo....? anyone out there...? You smoked during the BMW, get out there and give creepy and putiki a hurry up!

[Guest]

lets spend the energy getting the other multi's out racing...Voom..GDT...NFS...Hooters...Whio....

 

Anyone wnat to spend energy getting voom and whio out racing, is welcome down at little shoal bay this weekend to help with some sanding/grinding/painting/general repairs! We'll be out there as soon as the boats are ready.

 

GDT? Heellloooooo....? anyone out there...? You smoked during the BMW, get out there and give creepy and putiki a hurry up!

 

I might be able to give you a hand this weekend. I dont yet know what im doing though. Depends on the weather.

[Guest]

I repent the Attitude that Offender is slower than the top 8.5s We can beat Deeds and I'm ready to prove it tomorrow. Offender is now the fastest Multihull in New Zealand I just can't afford to sail her that fast It is also dam hard to hold on!.

 

What we really need is a division for trimarans 9 mtrs and under and one for 9 -10 mtrs and one for, Oh stuff it how about a division for each boat then we can all be winners and sail just the right length course....waffle wiffle woof

 

At the moment Offender is sailing round a course by herself, Its like playing with yourself and guess what! we are having fun ( as you do when you play with yourself)

[Guest]

One start and two divisions would be my pick.

[white tornado 1]

A suggestion: why not go to time based racing. Just set a course that involves a few laps, and then record distance sailed towards next objective at a fixed time (via GPS), at a set time, say 4pm . Technology is not that difficult, and everyone would finish at the same time, and get into the bar at the same time, and home to the dinner party at the time they want . At the moment, often the whole exercise depends on how good the race officer is at predicting the wind, and whether he shortens the course at the right time.