johnMi 2 Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Don't Agree Yachting is not a cheap sport, and nor should it be. I pay good dollars a year to buy a boat, race, and maintain it. I expect to pay for it (what we pay for race entries in NZ is ridiculously cheap), but get a bit grumpy when a crew member feel's he needs to take the handlebars of my boat. He can spend money to hold a tiller. You reckon their's not enough racing, you can't do events you like. Bullshit.. We have 2 clubs that race on Wednesdays with 60+ boats each wed We have 2 very good regattas. BOI, (of which can't do more to try to cater to everyone's whim)and BMW, right on our doorstep. We have umteen national class regattas. If youy want class racing buy a Y88 for instance SSANZ that does a fantastic job, catering for good short handed racing (100+ boats) Good Winter Racing at at least 6 different clubs etc. YNZ aren't doing anything for us?? Don't agree, we have some of the best sailors in the world, who have been preened by YNZ, with the likes of Jonathan Gravit, Laurie Jury for example, who then put their skills into the local racing scene, giving me the priviladge of lining my skills with them. (I beat Murray Ross once to the top mark, I could have died and would have died a happy man that day) Stop complaining and enjoy what you have, especially here in Auckland, I reckon the best overall Sailing city IN THE WORLD!! Link to post Share on other sites
markm 30 Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Agree with much of what you say Hirdy, have to be careful always though to not emphasize any one segment of Yachting over another (he says about to start an essay on only one segment). On the safety thing, as I understand it, we're pretty much dictated to by ISAF, I'm sure we're a little more influential at that level than say NZ is in tennis or soccer, but basically in Northern Hemisphere eyes we count for nothing and it's just an embarrassing statistical anomaly that we so often upstage our betters in competition. The comments from SBS and one or two others about ditching regs completely IMO are just impractical bar talk, yeah right, we might get away with it because no one internationally happens to notice, but in practice it leads to exclusion from ISAF, Olympics and no NZ sailor will be permitted to sail against any international sailor. I'm to be convinced this is a practical way forward. I don't like it either (I pay bills and go through the hastle too), but if you have a look into Australian sailing and what they have to jump through even at a club level, well the phrase "You don't know how lucky you are mate" springs to mind. I've commented a couple of times before, one of the things collating the RaceTrack results that's really obvious is how some areas are so much more successful at getting boats (you name it they get it) on the water than others. There are things that the Auckland clubs can learn from say Nelson, BoI or Waikawa in this area, Who knows, may just be a different social dynamic with a smaller community, on the other hand it may be that they kept whatever it was Auckland lost from sailing and the fleets of the early 80s. It may be a perceptions type thing that Fish indirectly highlighted in a BMW thread commenting "not interested, don't have exotic sails, support boats ...", that isn't what 99.9% of the bMW regatta specifically and AKL club sailing generally is about but the perception that it might be seems to have put one person off, which probably means it's put more than one off, which isn't good. Actually keeping a bit of a close eye on TBCC for the next couple of years, might be something to learn there. Another theory about participation as that as a few get more and more serious and competitive, the less competitive drop out. With TBCC, they do seem to have had a significant influx of pretty race oriented boats in the last year or so, going to be interested to see what effect, if any, it has on their fleet. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 There needs to be some focus in NZ on the club sailor, and especially promoting keelboat sailing for the family as well as all other classes, and as a life pastime. Plus a promotion of sailing at competitive club level to keep young people in the sport. We have people go through youth schemes and if they are not in the top percentage of sailors with a professional future, they drop off, and then don't come back to the sport till later in life. Promotion of the sport as part of our culture that everyone can be involved in. The corinthian racing of sail what you have and enjoy it is what needs to be promoted. Interesting to see how major events around the world have changed, and the need to have bigger and new yachts to be able to even enter in some cases. Clubs and the yachting public need to promote getting boats racing, and people sailing. Yachts taking part in club events, especially regattas. Make it affordable for eveyone. The more people are involved the more they will look to take part in one or two other events a year. eg RNI other major regattas. We need some leadership from KORC and YNZ regarding the safety regulations. This is currently in most peoples eyes the biggest hinderance to the sport being affordable. There seems to be very little dialogue from them on why and where the changes are, and where the safety regulations are heading. Currently the safety regulations are a moving target. Everytime I talk to the safety inspector regarding an event I would like to do next year, I am faced with changes to the regulations. This is getting to the why bother stage now. Overall we need to make and promote our sport as easy, open and affordable to everyone. We need to push YNZ, MNZ and all clubs and other bodies to help us with this. Hear hear! bloody well said After all what do you Non Auckland sailors pay your YNZ fee's for??? Sure their are a few Auckland clubs with good numbers but that is a small" national" minority. I think YNZ look out the window and see Westhaven is full and think that Yachting is Bouyant! what they fail to see is that most of the boats are either cruising boats or not used and either way they contribute F all to the YNZ coffers! Most clubs are struggling with numbers and YNZ don't care! where are their promotional stratagies? all i see them do is promote a few Elite sailors and add cost to the sport! Link to post Share on other sites
Clipper 343 Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Give it a rest Brownie. I'm a tad sick of your reptitive rantings. Back onto ignore/foe. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Yep. The constant drivel and bagging of YNZ is bullshit. >If you want some input spend some productive time on your club committee If you can't afford your cat 1,2,3,4, or 5 cert sell the boat and go crew for somebody who can afford it. If somebody wants to go cruising in the BMW regatta ala passage div with or without your spinnacker, ring up and put in an entry, they won't turn you away. You never know you might start a Forrest Gump type of trend Seriously go for it, look at Hamilton Is RW As for the needing flash harry sails, the irc champ could easily run dacron, if somebody wanted to sort out a 1020 or Stewart 34 Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Oh my gawd, it's Rodney Hide using a pseudonym. Fancy that Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Rocket Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Yep Best place in the world to go yachting - look at next 2 weeks - gotta deliver the boat to BOI this weekend - a nice sail up a cool bit of coast. Next week BOI race week three days of great yachting in a stunning place. Saturday got the Laser nationals in Timaru 4 days of yachting with the fellow jelly bellies (a week out 130 boats entered). So nah NZ yachting is not in trouble looks pretty damn fine - only trouble is fitting it all in! (oh and earning enough to keep the various nautical toys running and myself fed and watered). Link to post Share on other sites
tuffyluffy 76 Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Oh my gawd, it's Rodney Hide using a pseudonym. Fancy that Na, its Brownie/George Looney/Criptic thin etc etc etc and another of his schizophrenic personalities talking through yet another sock-puppet. Yawn Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 You tieing Paddy and STS together? That's a brave call I would think Tuffy. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Paddy your onto it bro, things sure are going great and yachting in New Zealand sure is booming no wonder that if anyone dares suggest that things could be done better they rained upon with a shower of sh*t by the all knowing, Yep we have the starling and P Class nationals on in Naval Point at the moment, half the entries than in previous years...RNI race cancelled due to lack of entries, 6 kiwi boats make it to Noumea in the annual offshore race, pitiful entries in last years BMW, BOI regatta's, IRC series cancelled for lack of entries,most junior clubs struggling and living from day to day with dwindling fleets and no money, In the off year on the international circuit we have 1 crew (womens 470) who are competing inside the top 10 and a couple of laser sailors there abouts, go and talk to our yachties who are trying to mount olympic campaigns and here directly how incredibly happy and satisfied they are with the current set up and pathways and while you are doing that ring a few who have mounted campaigns over the last ten years and hear how very happy and contente they are, the BBYC mid week series almost invisible on the water, the retention of junior sailors making the bridge to senior yachting would be less than 10%, if you completed about two races in the RNZYS club champs and commodore cup series you got on the podium yep I been on the committees at my local sailing club, been on the YNZ committees, been commodore, personally contributed funds from my bank account and supported junior and olympic sailing campaigns, yep SSANZ, squaddy/richmond mid week and winter fleets pretty good, and hey everthing is great in your ballywack so all is great with the world and anybody who posts different is clearly just a whinging do nothing stirrer, oh and Hammo, exactly which glorius regatta in NZ were you comparing that event with? Link to post Share on other sites
johnMi 2 Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 well said Marsh Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Marshy, who ever you are? All those who deny or oppose what you are saying are in denial or just don't care. These same people will one day say... "what happened to", where did that go, why is our fleet dead... Its alright for you people to look at your boat and your fleet and say its OK. But is that a hollistic view?... no! The options for people(the public) are vast and wide and the powers that be are not doing a thing to get the current generation, or the next, excited about yachting! and at the same time they are sapping the enthusiasim out of the current sailors with red tape, cost, and a lack of a plan. Every example people like Marshy and others have given of sailing demise proves the fact! yet... Nothing changes. and you know what?... people like you (marshy) and me can take pride in not bring part of the problem! and all the soothesayers that defend YNZ's lack of action can sit uncomfortably in their retirement saying... If only we had listened! where's that light switch? P.s. Clipper. At least some of us have a high horse and some Guts to try to change the current downward trend! And before you say "direct it to the right people"! I've, and many others, been there and not had the distinction of a reply (they think thery are beyound reproach (as Marshy too has experienced). But thanks for your consideration and comments Link to post Share on other sites
markm 30 Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 people, do not confuse changes in what sailing is being done for a demise in sailing. It may be true for example the 30 years ago RNZYS club championships got 100 boats and now they get 20, however it is also true the twilight racing has grown from nothing to a hundred plus boats, is this a decline or a shift? Speicifically, my records for boats completing races in RNZYS racing for the last decade by season : 99 2853 00 3012 01 3227 02 3217 03 3357 04 3416 05 3624 06 3616 07 4031 08 4927 09 3941 Note the 2009-10 season is incomplete, I would be surprised if this season shows any downwards trend. Similarly, Bay week (excluding sports boats which I don't have complete records for, boats competing : 2003 25 2004 33 2005 48 2006 76 2007 78 2008 62 2009 76 2010 76 - to date I think there's a case the numbers have plateaued, the only significant decline was 2008 which if I recall, some serious northerlies in the days before the start kept some visiting boats away. For the RNI fully crewed, this is hardly a case of a crashing decline in yachting, it has only been run twice and neither occasion had over 10 boats, I'd contend a case of an idea that didn't take. Similarly the BoI feeder, only been run in the previous three years, attracting 8, 4 and 2 boats, again, I'd contend a case of an idea that didn't take. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Bugger me, one day I'll find some numbers Markm doesn't know. Don't know where, don't know how, don't know when but they have to be out there somewhere surely. His title of Data Lord is well deserved indeed Nice and interesting set of numbers there big fella. March 1965, Invercargill YC. Burt Munro was testing his motorbike along the beach and came so close to a P Class the hat blew off the young fella rigging it. Now smartarse, what was that boats sail number Link to post Share on other sites
Bogan 8 Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 I don't think the present safety requirements are a big ask. Few keelers need substantial work to comply up to Cat 3. The higher categories required for round NI, NZ or offshore are more difficult, but that reflects the conditions you might be expected to meet. I actually think that as far as the boat goes, the Cat3 rules would be sufficient for that racing as well - experienced seamanship is what really counts for the big stuff. I wonder if the tougher rules are to compensate for the new boats generally being lighter, faster and twitchier than in the past, and skippers and crews pushing them much harder. If yachting was booted from the olympics we would be better off. Racing can be a fantastic recreational activity. For alot of people one part of the joy is mucking around with the boats (designing, building, modifying and tuning). Getting rid of the olympic focus would allow Yachting NZ to focus on the popular local classes. Olympic sailing does nothing to bring people in NZ into our sport. In keelboat's that's mostly being done by the owners: providing a boat, getting a crew together, eventually selling it on for a fraction of its real value for someone else to race so they can buy another one. In dinghies, by anyone who decides to learn to sail. My experience is that most people who want to learn to sail have some connection to the water from their childhood, or have been introduced to the sport by an owner. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Paddy your onto it bro, things sure are going great and yachting in New Zealand sure is booming no wonder that if anyone dares suggest that things could be done better they rained upon with a shower of sh*t by the all knowing, Yep we have the starling and P Class nationals on in Naval Point at the moment, half the entries than in previous years...RNI race cancelled due to lack of entries, 6 kiwi boats make it to Noumea in the annual offshore race, pitiful entries in last years BMW, BOI regatta's, IRC series cancelled for lack of entries,most junior clubs struggling and living from day to day with dwindling fleets and no money, In the off year on the international circuit we have 1 crew (womens 470) who are competing inside the top 10 and a couple of laser sailors there abouts, go and talk to our yachties who are trying to mount olympic campaigns and here directly how incredibly happy and satisfied they are with the current set up and pathways and while you are doing that ring a few who have mounted campaigns over the last ten years and hear how very happy and contente they are, the BBYC mid week series almost invisible on the water, the retention of junior sailors making the bridge to senior yachting would be less than 10%, if you completed about two races in the RNZYS club champs and commodore cup series you got on the podium yep I been on the committees at my local sailing club, been on the YNZ committees, been commodore, personally contributed funds from my bank account and supported junior and olympic sailing campaigns, yep SSANZ, squaddy/richmond mid week and winter fleets pretty good, and hey everthing is great in your ballywack so all is great with the world and anybody who posts different is clearly just a whinging do nothing stirrer, oh and Hammo, exactly which glorius regatta in NZ were you comparing that event with? I did not say that things are beautiful and perfect. What I did say is quit bagging those people who are actually well intentioned. And get involved And enter races And ask clubs for the racing you want And talk your mate into going along as well And Mark does have agood point the numbers are generally there, just in different places >Optimists vs PClass >Wed nite vs Weekend racing >Daylight racing vs Overnight and offshore >What was important 10 years ago ain't now And yes I do know plenty of people who put in the hard yards and feel like they have simply pissed in the wind Any club, association, national authority is only as good as the people in there. And so is generational Yes you do get people you disagree with in there occassionally. Only one way to change it isn't there? But you know better than anybody that it is not a simple fix. When r u going to run for President... ??? >Not of Ynz >Not of The Republic of NZ But some outfit that can give you some real $ to fix the problems of NZ yachting. Remember you are going to have to pay a lot of clowns to go and play some other sport Link to post Share on other sites
Zoe 8 Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 I'm not afraid to say I think that the glass is half full. Have a look at any of Richard Gladwell's Sail World NZ newsletters. Each week they show a really vibrant and strong yachting scene. It's different to other decades, yes, because times are changing, and that means some classes, clubs and events, will dwindle while others get stronger, but still overall I think the scene is pretty good on the whole, and not too much different from what's happening overseas in terms of fleet scale. Link to post Share on other sites
Changed 10 Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 It wasn't that long ago in NZ that there was nothing else to do in the weekends, shops were shut, few worked weekends, pubs were closed and people raced to Kawau to get a drink at the elephant house! Nowadays there are real choices and us blokes have compromised by becoming mall, brunch and coffee junkies. Even I have learned to compromise - a little. Link to post Share on other sites
Battleship 100 Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Hmm interesting discussion, it's pretty easy to bag YNZ, in the past i have also had the odd crack at them (really hate any new rules the make it more difficult/expensive to go sailing). I have and still do sit on committees and go to meetings and AGM's and have found YNZ are willing to try and do anything almost to get more people sailing, but unless we let them know what we want and that we are not happy it's only natural to assume all is well. Some clubs don't even return surveys FFS. But by far the best fun and most effective way to improve sailing is to get your boat out there and use the thing. Sure you usually need the flashist sails and gear to win along with a good crew and some luck but we wouldn't want it any other way would we? So forget all the bullshit go down to your boat this weekend and go sailing. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 people, do not confuse changes in what sailing is being done for a demise in sailing. It may be true for example the 30 years ago RNZYS club championships got 100 boats and now they get 20, however it is also true the twilight racing has grown from nothing to a hundred plus boats, is this a decline or a shift? Speicifically, my records for boats completing races in RNZYS racing for the last decade by season : 99 2853 00 3012 01 3227 02 3217.... . MarkM, Its fine to give a couple of "auckland" examples and say its ok !but for every one of your examples i can give 5 "diametrically opposed" counter examples (nationally). Here we go... P class tanner cup and Tauranga cup... down Starling nationals - down Finn nationals - Down Boardsailing (olympic class) - down 470 - dead 420 - down FF - down All Offshore races except Auckland to BOI race - down or cancelled Tornado dead Etchells - down in Auckland and dead everywhere else. Nolex 22 and 25 nationals dead Hartley 16 - dead LAser2 - down A class fleet and nationals down MAgic 25 --down/dead? Trailor sailor nationals (div1, Div2, oPE DIV) - DOWN Cherup, Q class and many older classes - DEAD R Class - (amalgamated with 12ft Skiff) - thus dead. Line7 regatta wgtn - numbers down Phase 2 dead? B49er - dead B29er dead Moth - down Elliot 5.9 - down And most of this decline has happened in the last 10 - 15 years! Then when you look at the replacement classes that should have boosted numbers... SplaSh 420? New moth Elliot 7 Z39 laser radial Then you look at the boatbuilding industry as a indicator of the sport!... No Dingy class builders left (MArten, Sea Nymph, ... Gone) Just a few one man bands now. Also where are the mass production Boat builders of Keel boats?... none left! On the good side... OK Dingy - thriving and producing world champ events / sailors Paper Tiger nats / inter doms - thriving. Multihull sailing - Thriving Team NZ - thriving with cash to burn in a dud event!... well go figure Don't get me wrong! i don't enjoy saying this stuff! but someone has to point out the decline and something has to be done! There are a few people in this country who have a paid responsibility to the sport and its development / growth!... they have let the sport down! Thats is a fact when you consider the above and the "lack of Action" to even just try and slow the decline!. If you keep doing the same thing you will keep getting the same result! Even all the SPARC money wasted on the olympics has only produced a couple of medals in the last 8 years and made a few elite sailors rich! As Zoe says..."YNZ know what fight to pick and do a good job with them"... But i say they are picking the wrong fights! and backing the wrong fighters. Either way you look at it its a failure on many fronts. I will say no more! Link to post Share on other sites
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