Mast height

[Guest]

There is a lot of talk on the Sailing Anarchy site about the mast height for the 8.5.

Our Aussie "friends" are saying it's too short.

 

So straight to the skippers and owners.

So is it too short?

Is the air draft going to be increased?

[Guest]

I saw the topic and thought "here we go again!!!"

 

cant see it happening myself, and at the end of the day the rule is creating some pretty quick new boats that are versatile for both cruising and racing.

 

IMHO they would be better off banning carbon beams and masts, as that would be inline with the idea behind the rule of keeping the costs of the boats down.......

[Guest]

I agree.

The rule is working, as the extra sail area/height only gives extra speed in the light.

From reading the rules, everything seems fairly open. for example a wing sail could the the ticket.

[Guest]

can you tell us why you are asking the question pacice? are you going to build?...buy?...sail an 8.5?

[Guest]

Hey rod boy. Aluminium beams are false economy. Carbon beams are cheaper in the long run. Just ask previous owners of your boat how many aluminium beams have been broken. I know I broke one. and the front beam has been replace a couple of times. also with the number of times your mast has been in and out for alterations you could have built a carbon one for the same price.

 

The 12's ditched ali a long time ago. Boats are still using masts that are 12-15 years old and wining races with them. sorry to rain on your parade but I am a firm believer in carbon over ali.

[Guest]

you are correct send it....about the aluminium false economy thingy...... I dont think our front beam is a good example though..... it is a twig

[Clipper 343]

Hey rod boy. Aluminium beams are false economy. Carbon beams are cheaper in the long run. Just ask previous owners of your boat how many aluminium beams have been broken. I know I broke one. and the front beam has been replace a couple of times. also with the number of times your mast has been in and out for alterations you could have built a carbon one for the same price.

 

The 12's ditched ali a long time ago. Boats are still using masts that are 12-15 years old and wining races with them. sorry to rain on your parade but I am a firm believer in carbon over ali.

 

Bollocks bollock bollocks.

Look at the number of small (8.5ish) multis out there in NZ and aus with aluminium beams, that have been around for a long time, with few problems. Comparing the rigs of 12s with the beams of a cat is nonsense too. The rig option in the 12's are driven by performance, rather than price.

What is the cost difference for a carbon front beam over an aluminium front beam on an 8.5 cat? I don't know, but I'm guesing a factor of about 3.

 

As for the beams and mast on twu, a lot of the issues are due to poor design and engineering, rather than inherent material issues. And you could not have got a carbon rig for the same price as the ali one, even pulling it out once.

 

I don't disagree that carbon is better, but it comes at at cost, that many/most owners don't want to fork out for.

 

'False economy' is nonsense

[Guest]

Back to the rig height (power to weight) issue...

 

The real problem is the typical 'class' boat is under-powered in less than 15-20kts.

As the class grows people will look for performance.

I think what the Aussies are saying is that the boats are underpowered.

This becomes a real frustration when you think about how much of your yachting is done >15kts.

 

 

The class rule, is trying to be inclusive of older, heavier boats.

To grow the class you want people to build new boats and keep the old ones.

The reality is that somebody building a new boat is going to be underwelmed by the light airs performance.

Mind you they could fit a lot more crap in it (eh samin?)

This rule will let people build nice fast 'cruisable' boats ,but the hard out guys are always going to be asking for the rule to change so they can get more power.

 

Fact of life, isn't it.

[Guest]

what true wind speed do the down to weight boats DD's, Attitude etc fly a hull in -less than 15knots I would have thought.

sounds like the aussies are trying to optimise for under 10knots

[MrWolf 0]

Any boat that has full sail up in 25 knots (as DD and Attitude routinely do) must be underpowered in 10-15 knots.

 

As to Mr Clipper.

 

take your average 8.5 home build such as Dirty Deeds which lets so goes on the water for $100k.

Carbon everything, and to be fair, it is streets ahead of anything else (overall) in the 8.5 class.

 

so you want to build cheaper than DD but also be competitive ?

Or you are happy to be slower ?

Or what exactly.

 

Put your horrid alloy beams and mast and boom on (puke) !

And you save what exactly, I'll be generous and say you save $20k and launch your boat for 80k,

 

Tell me what is your brand new boat good for ?

Are you going to be 100% competitive with Deeds or not ?

 

If not, (which is a given) then why not spend the extra to be competitive?

 

Then part two is, what value do you place on your own time when you have a new alloy rigged boat that has sailed 6 odd times in 2 years waiting for Alloy abortions to be fixed and put right. If you had been happily sailing all that time with a nice Carbon mast might not it be "worth it" in the long run?

 

If the alloy section costs $6k and the carbon section $11k that is a difference of $5k, and that is the realistic difference !

[Clipper 343]

Depends on your point of view Tim. I dont disagree with what you are saying if building a racing 8.5 under the current rules.

 

My point was more along the lines of rod_boys comment about if the rule was to be changed, an idea to limit costs was to ban carbon beams and rigs. If no one else had them, you wouldn't need them either, and you could have cheaper boats. Now if they keep failing and needing replacement, then russells comments are correct (false economy). But if engineered correctly, they don't keep failing.

 

My point was perhaps different from how it has been read. So I agree with most of what you say. However, why woud the time in getting a rig sorted be different if it were carbon over ali? the problems were with design, not the material.

[Guest]

I would be perfectly happy racing say attitude.... that has complete alloy beam/rig package.

 

it seems to do ok against the dirty deeds that has alot of the black stuff in it.

 

not disputing that it would go better with carbon beams and rig, but the reality is that there is a minimum weight requirement for the 8.5m boats, so some bits simply have to be heavy.

 

so yeah, I can still see the benefit in saving 20k on a new boat and sacrificing the carbon bits.

[Guest]

its pretty simple u want a faster boat than the deeds alloy aint gunna cut it

[samin 0]

its pretty simple u want a faster boat than the deeds alloy aint gunna cut it

 

I wonder how the Grainger Ice Box would go? Its got alloy beams and only a fool would say it couldnt be a top boat in the fleet.

 

never heard of a 5k alloy extusion for a 8.5, maybe 2k...

 

its the rigging and speader etc that makes them pricey.

[Guest]

keep on wondering

its pretty simple u want a faster boat than the deeds alloy aint gunna cut it

 

I wonder how the Grainger Ice Box would go? Its got alloy beams and only a fool would say it couldnt be a top boat in the fleet.

 

never heard of a 5k alloy extusion for a 8.5, maybe 2k...

 

its the rigging and speader etc that makes them pricey.

[Guest]

Just some info on sailing in Aus.

So far 4 out of 5 autumn series races in Pittwater average wind speed 4 knts.

Luck becomes a very big factor in winning. Very frustrating to spend saturdays dodging wind holes, nocks and predicting direction changes.

This is a good reason to get more height in the mast, more sail in the air, but don't be affraid to reef early in a blow.

Thats just how it is where I sail

cheers

[ScottiE 174]

Just some info on sailing in Aus.

So far 4 out of 5 autumn series races in Pittwater average wind speed 4 knts.

Luck becomes a very big factor in winning. Very frustrating to spend saturdays dodging wind holes, nocks and predicting direction changes.

This is a good reason to get more height in the mast, more sail in the air, but don't be affraid to reef early in a blow.

Thats just how it is where I sail

cheers

 

How will a taller rig help you with a) luck, frustration c) dodging wind holes, d) (k)nocks and e) predicting direction changes. Not that I'd recommend it to an Aussie, sounds like emigration will help you more with all of the above!

[samin 0]

 

Luck becomes a very big factor in winning.

 

This is a good reason to get more height in the mast, more sail in the air,

 

 

Can someone stick a muzzle on this idiot?

[johnMi 2]

Quote "There is a lot of talk on the Sailing Anarchy site about the mast height for the 8.5.

Our Aussie "friends" are saying it's too short."

 

Who has a great fleet of 8.5s- NZ.

Who has procrastinators- Australia

 

I suggest we forget about lengthening masts etc just to play with the Aussies, if they want to play with us they do so under our rules. There have been too many purpose built 8.5s to change now, and we do not need to lengthen the masts for NZ conditions. Look at DD/ Attitude proves that the length is fine. In fact 5 out of the top 10 racing boats in NZ are 8.5s.

 

Now tell me the masts are too short!

[Guest]

Now tell me the masts are too short!

 

john, the masts are too short.

 

....currently with the mast height as is, the boats move through the water when the wind blows. This is cool and a great leap forward in boat design.

 

....with a decent mast height, the boats would be powered up more often, alot more fun to sail, and we woudln't see boats with really ugly sail plans (built around a rule rather than effeciency) starting to emerge in the fleet.

 

Its common sense really. And you have to ask why the rule is what the rule is.

 

The only reason that the mast height is set as it is , is because of a bunch of GBEs that keep talking about comming racing. This is just bollocks. Sure if you had a fleet of 10 GBEs that actually came racing this might be a good argument. But when was the last time that more than 2 GBEs participated in a seasons racing.....????

 

What you really have is an 8.5m cruising division and an 8.5m racing division. There is already a huge split in the fleet, so you might as well let the future boats get proper sized rigs, and those that actaully want to race can upgrade to bigger rigs. The rest of the talkers can just keep floating round the gulf with there little sticks and brown undies.

 

 

CU