ec12nz 1 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Yesterday the salvage Co was talking about getting helicopoter to pluck the containers from the sea onto a barge Don't think any helicopter in NZ let alone the world has the lift capability - take a a 20' container fully loade at 20 tonnes add some water - say 2-3 more tonnes and then the added water friction just tryting to lift it and you would need a helicopter of proportions not available anywhere: According to the magic of google the biggest payload helicopter is this one : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-26 and only a 20 tonne max payload General characteristics Crew: Five– 2 pilots, 1 navigator, 1 flight engineer, 1 flight technician Capacity: 90 troops or 60 stretchers 20,000 kg cargo (44,090 lb) Length: 40.025 m (131 ft 3¾ in) (rotors turning) Rotor diameter: 32.00 m (105 ft 0 in) Height: 8.145 m (26 ft 8¾ in) Disc area: 804.25 m2 (8,656.8 ft²) Empty weight: 28,200 kg (62,170 lb) Loaded weight: 49,600 kg (109,350 lb) Max takeoff weight: 56,000 kg (123,450 lb) Powerplant: 2 × Lotarev D-136 turboshafts, 8,500 kW (11,399 shp) each Link to post Share on other sites
Kestrahl 6 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Braemar Howells operations manager Claudine Sharp said trajectory projections showed containers could wash up on beaches as far as Mercury Bay over the next few years. Link to post Share on other sites
Murky 1 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 In the wash up (excuse the pun) it will be found that Maritime NZ was under resourced, under funded, and run by people well out of their depth... If you believe in conspiracy theories... In an environment where the Government has vowed to continue to reduce staff levels in Government departments, wouldn't that be exactly what you would want them to find i.e. "clearly there was a genuine risk and this demonstrates that our budgets have been cut back too far". Just like a good war makes the case for defence spending. Link to post Share on other sites
Megwyn 2 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 DOC are here in our inner harbour today looking for oiled birds. I noted a browny frothy substance in the estuary last night - never seen it here before - not that colour. The head of our estuary is a wildlife sanctuary. The open beach last night was a mess. Huge piles of large milk powder bags. I counted 7 stranded containers. One was spewing timber as I watched. The channel entrance was full of moving timber - 20x20mm and up to 5-6 meters long. That could hurt if you hit it! M Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 The Govt and it agencies would have been strung up and the bill will be biger than texas! Why? Did you really expect 1000 people in polyester suits to be on the beach with pens and laptops within 24hrs and if so what fecking use would they be? Do you really expect anyone to have a large pile of very heavy lift gear just sitting in Tauranga and every other harbour ready to go immediately? Baring in mind all this $$millions would have been doing nothing for many years bar costing large in maintenance. Do you really expect NZ to have one of only a handful of helicopters in the world that can lift 40,000 just sitting waiting for 'something maybe'? Personally I'd far prefer professionals to take a moment or 2 to look at the situation, suss the options and then action what they think is best rather than the Govt dive in randomly which would most likely only make matters worse. To suggest anyone, especially a slug like a Govt, could have geared up and stopped any possibility of pollution inside a day or 3 of the grounding, I would suggest is somewhat delusional. Things were happening and happened very shortly after they grounded, it's more just nothing was available locally so had to come in from places assorted, which does take time. As a FYI, a 20ft container weights nearly 4t empty and you can put 24t of goodies inside, more on some occasions. It's a hell large and knot common chopper than can lift 30T or more. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Rocket Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I am not so convinced that the initial response was slow. As noted by others it is not an easy job and on day one there would have been huge uncertainties (can we float it off or not). I think it is more a case of we are a small country and cannot afford to have the necessary equipment sitting unused for 10 year waiting for an accident (and then probably past use by date or not working when needed). What happened with the Mikhai Lermotov when that hit - there must have been a lot of fuel oil on board - was it lighter stuff that evaporated/broke up more readily? Link to post Share on other sites
chic014 0 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Herald is saying the stern is sinking http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=10777728 Link to post Share on other sites
chic014 0 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Photos here http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/rena ... na-sinking Link to post Share on other sites
Marshy 30 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 RIP Rena... Guess there is a new Dive Wreck at Astrolab Reef now... Link to post Share on other sites
Battleship 100 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Waihi Beach today Link to post Share on other sites
chic014 0 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 marinetraffic.com AIS seems to be back working again. There are tugs everywhere! Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 More here http://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/20601-ren ... sinks.html Also this bad news http://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/20589-lar ... rbour.html TYPBC Slipper Island race postponed indefinitely. Bummer. Hope the mess is cleared up before Easter Link to post Share on other sites
rigger 47 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 got to http://maritimenz.govt.nz/Rena/gallery-salvage.asp for more and higher res Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crafty 1 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The Govt and it agencies would have been strung up and the bill will be biger than texas! Why? Did you really expect 1000 people in polyester suits to be on the beach with pens and laptops within 24hrs and if so what fecking use would they be? Do you really expect anyone to have a large pile of very heavy lift gear just sitting in Tauranga and every other harbour ready to go immediately? Baring in mind all this $$millions would have been doing nothing for many years bar costing large in maintenance. Do you really expect NZ to have one of only a handful of helicopters in the world that can lift 40,000 just sitting waiting for 'something maybe'? Personally I'd far prefer professionals to take a moment or 2 to look at the situation, suss the options and then action what they think is best rather than the Govt dive in randomly which would most likely only make matters worse. To suggest anyone, especially a slug like a Govt, could have geared up and stopped any possibility of pollution inside a day or 3 of the grounding, I would suggest is somewhat delusional. Things were happening and happened very shortly after they grounded, it's more just nothing was available locally so had to come in from places assorted, which does take time. As a FYI, a 20ft container weights nearly 4t empty and you can put 24t of goodies inside, more on some occasions. It's a hell large and knot common chopper than can lift 30T or more. Knotme, i don't expect that they should have expensive equipment just lying there ready. I do expect Pro's to konw how to contain oil spills of this magnitude within hours, considering the world wide polution experienced by many marine environs on this planet. and i do expect they have a plan for fast access to the "big stuff". Remember it took weeks to get kit organised while the clip board brigade played Bic Pen Bingo. Actually... why not have expensive gear sitting ready to deal with this stuff?! after all we have billions of dollars worth of fire equipment and firemen who do just that! and with our coastline we are very exposed to risk. Also re the helicopter. Don't blame the mesenge here. Thier salvage expert said they were looking at the helicopter option when the seas calmed down. Link to post Share on other sites
grant 40 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 [quote name="Crafty 1Knotme' date=' i don't expect that they should have expensive equipment just lying there ready. I do expect Pro's to konw how to contain oil spills of this magnitude within hours, considering the world wide polution experienced by many marine environs on this planet. and i do expect they have a plan for fast access to the "big stuff". Remember it took weeks to get kit organised while the clip board brigade played Bic Pen Bingo. Actually... why not have expensive gear sitting ready to deal with this stuff?! after all we have billions of dollars worth of fire equipment and firemen who do just that! and with our coastline we are very exposed to risk. Also re the helicopter. Don't blame the mesenge here. Thier salvage expert said they were looking at the helicopter option when the seas calmed down.[/quote] sorry but what a load of rot.... I hope you don't actually belive what you read in the paper do you? as far as oil spills go this one wasn't large and it was dealt with pretty well, could things have been done differently? sure they could, but we're probably talking about 10-20% improvement here not 80-90% that is implied It did not take weeks to get stuff organised, gear was being mobilised within days, the really big stuff took longer as there was a lot they came from aussie, which it happens didn't get used and has been sent back. As far as the salavage barge to lift the containers, that was a 60 day tow from singapore, not the sort of kit you get here overnight and way too pricely for NZ to have lying around. On our history something of that size has been needed maybe twice in the last 50 years, and maybe would have been useful once or twice more. I think fire engines get a bit more use than that for a lot lower cost. I do agree about the helipcoter, no idea what they were on about, unless they meant collecting peices, but that actually has nothing to do with MNZ or the governement, that was the container recovery company I think. Link to post Share on other sites
Grinna 2 Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Knotme, i don't expect that they should have expensive equipment just lying there ready. I do expect Pro's to konw how to contain oil spills of this magnitude within hours, considering the world wide polution experienced by many marine environs on this planet. and i do expect they have a plan for fast access to the "big stuff". Remember it took weeks to get kit organised while the clip board brigade played Bic Pen Bingo. Actually... why not have expensive gear sitting ready to deal with this stuff?! after all we have billions of dollars worth of fire equipment and firemen who do just that! and with our coastline we are very exposed to risk. Also re the helicopter. Don't blame the mesenge here. Thier salvage expert said they were looking at the helicopter option when the seas calmed down. Aaahhh ... actually there is oil spill equipment onsite in every port in the country and regular drills and exercises with regards to its deployment and operation. The problem there is that its geared toward protected waters and chop and waves makes it pretty much useless at controlling spilled oils. Bods were onsite pretty promptly trying to contain the oil and when that didn't work dosing it with dispersants ... evaluating and trying options. Even the pros struggle to control oil spills in anything other than flat calm water conditions .... refer to the Gulf of Mexico oil spill from the BP well for an example. I think you'll find it was days as opposed to weeks before salvors were appointed and onsite evaluating the situation and working out how best to deal with it. Crafty, I think your frustration is perfectly normal but stems from unrealistic expectations of what is possible versus what would be ideal. Let's not forget that in an ideal world the ship wouldn't have been driven straight up on a well known reef in the first place. Don't shoot the messenger??? well how about shooting the dickhead that caused the problem in the first place instead ... the idiot that decided to drive the Rena over a bloody great rock. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crafty 1 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 [quote name="Crafty 1Knotme' date=' i don't expect that they should have expensive equipment just lying there ready. I do expect Pro's to konw how to contain oil spills of this magnitude within hours, considering the world wide polution experienced by many marine environs on this planet. and i do expect they have a plan for fast access to the "big stuff". Remember it took weeks to get kit organised while the clip board brigade played Bic Pen Bingo. Actually... why not have expensive gear sitting ready to deal with this stuff?! after all we have billions of dollars worth of fire equipment and firemen who do just that! and with our coastline we are very exposed to risk. Also re the helicopter. Don't blame the mesenge here. Thier salvage expert said they were looking at the helicopter option when the seas calmed down.[/quote] sorry but what a load of rot.... I hope you don't actually belive what you read in the paper do you? as far as oil spills go this one wasn't large and it was dealt with pretty well, could things have been done differently? sure they could, but we're probably talking about 10-20% improvement here not 80-90% that is implied It did not take weeks to get stuff organised, gear was being mobilised within days, the really big stuff took longer as there was a lot they came from aussie, which it happens didn't get used and has been sent back. As far as the salavage barge to lift the containers, that was a 60 day tow from singapore, not the sort of kit you get here overnight and way too pricely for NZ to have lying around. On our history something of that size has been needed maybe twice in the last 50 years, and maybe would have been useful once or twice more. I think fire engines get a bit more use than that for a lot lower cost. I do agree about the helipcoter, no idea what they were on about, unless they meant collecting peices, but that actually has nothing to do with MNZ or the governement, that was the container recovery company I think. Hi grant, No rot here. Do you work in the Maritime industry with a particular Harbour board? I suspect you do and probably have a particular bias (defensive) I Only believe what is see and what the experts tell me. then i compare it to similar oils spill clean ups overseas (such as the last one in America) In this case the response was poor and the preperation very average by MNZ. IMHO. Containment was a no go and not one oil boom was launched. Tagging GPS to containers in the first instance was not considered and yet its the "word of the month" now they see more going west, east , north and south. The Pumping started with a boy doing a mans job then they got more pump power. and why only one and not 2-3? Why was there no peer review of the salvers to ensure they were doing the upmost to pump oil, remove Containers, and ensure that they were not working to a cost and a reduction in Insurance Co's pay out? Why only one Crane and barge.? Grinna, Yes i, and others, are miffed about how this has evolved. The only saving grace about all this is, as mentioned before, the weather has been kind up until now. I bet even Grant would be annoyed if this wether had happened prior to pumping off the oil. The carnage would be HUGE I don't accept that this is just the way salvage's run. It might be they way MNZ and other's do it and they may be happy but i thought the last couple of major disaster smight have made the experts more aware and better equipped. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I always find it entertaining when a muppet behind a keyboard second guesses world renowned experts.... Its such an New Zealand trait! Crafty 1, maybe you should have sailed out there in your boat with a straw and sucked it all up.... Link to post Share on other sites
grant 40 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 yes I am involved in the maritime industry, at a Regional Council, not for a Habour Boards as they disappeared 22 years ago, and I make no secrect of that fact. I have spent some time in Tauranga in relation to the Rena(less than a week, so a lot less than a lot of other people) and know a lot of the people directly invloved. I try to remain impartial, you believe I'm defensive, and that's fine, what annoys me is when a large number of people become instant experts and has all the answers of what should have been done. This is not directed at you crafty, but a more general statement. I think the media are amoung the worst, they seem to hunt out anyone who has something critical to say, whether it has any merit or not (usually not) Most people have no idea of what is involved, what is going on and the resources needed to deal with something like this. As i have said before, this wasn't a perfect response, I'm not actually sure if that can ever happen anyway. You are right about a lack of containment, but that is also a practical problem, booms aren't so flash in open water. It was very fortunate that the oil was removed prior to the ship breaking up as that avoided a very large mess, no arguement there. But here again, you make the statement that no booms were launched, if you want to get picky and be absolutely correct about things you are wrong here. Booms were deployed in both protection roles and for recovery attempts, just not for containement. The salvors were (are?) working on a performance pay system, the less pollution the better they get paid, how that works out on a practical level i'm not sure. How do you know what level of oversight there was with regards the salvors? I'm not asking because I have any insight, but questioning whether you know that there wasn't or replying on 3 or 4 th hand reports (or even worse, the media.....). One thing that I think will come out of the review of this is that there is a large degree of confusion over who is responsbile for what in this reposnes, and that's not just the publice point of view, MNZ are reposible for the oil pollution and an overall oversight, they do not run the salvage, I also think MNZ may have contributed to this confusion by appearing in front of the media with a Salvage unit manager. Only one crane and barge? actually this is the second crane they have working on there, the first being a significannly smaller version put together with local resources, but I would wonder how you would actually have room and resources to work two around what was there? If you have experts advsing you I can only hope that they are advising from a positon of knowledge of the situation and not just becasue they read an article about what has happened somewhere overseas... Link to post Share on other sites
rigger 47 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Containment was a no go and not one oil boom was launched. Have you ever worked with an oil boom offshore? I have trained with deploying one at sea - an interesting exercise.... FYI - sea conditions greater than a few feet and stuff could wash over it. Link to post Share on other sites
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