Guest Crafty 1 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Well said Dr Watson and not at all elementry my dear Watson. But what did we do before we had oil?... I know we had less war's and Cancers. I know we had less pollution and less stress. But then we had other issues that oil has solved. Albeit the solutions the oils industry has created are soultions to the oils industries problems in a lot of cases. Well, before we had oil we had fewer people for a start. We also had a considerably lower life expectancy, less food, more lung disease (cooking over smokey fires will do that for ya), etc, etc. Did we really have fewer wars or were they just smaller in scale and much more up close and personal?? Part of the lower cancer rate was that people a) didn't call it cancer or know what cancer was necessarily and didn't live long enough to develop some of the illnesses we get nowadays. Less pollution? .... well fewer people so that's a part of it. But sanitation and waste management systems, for example, were pretty rudimentary if present at all so it depends on how you define pollution. Does faecal pollution of waterways count for instance? Less stress? Yeah, cos working for hours and hours in the fields to try and grow and harvest food for you and your family and store sufficient for the winter, knowing that if you fail in any way it means at the very least rationing and hunger and at the worst starvation, disease and death is a very relaxing way to live. Put that way then.... Oils good When you look at just the lubication side of oil we would be buggered without it. Sure we probably could develop Vegetable oils like the good out days of Castor oil, but think about all the hydro and wind generators that need lubricaion for all the moving parts! without it we could still be living with fireplaces for light, heating and cooking. Link to post Share on other sites
rigger 47 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 When you look at just the lubication side of oil we would be buggered without it. Sure we probably could develop Vegetable oils like the good out days of Castor oil, but think about all the hydro and wind generators that need lubricaion for all the moving parts! without it we could still be living with fireplaces for light, heating and cooking. This would get the greens up - whale oil....... Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Well actually, oil itself is a very poor lubricator. What it is actually really good at is a Base to hold all the additives that do all the important stuff. Friction reducers, Acid neutralisers, Heat absorbers, EP strengtheners and so on and so on, are all part of the additives that get added to the base oil. Hence why you get cheap oil from Repco and Supercheap and expensive oils. It all comes down to what is added and not that the "oil" itself is good or not. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crafty 1 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Well actually, oil itself is a very poor lubricator. What it is actually really good at is a Base to hold all the additives that do all the important stuff. Friction reducers, Acid neutralisers, Heat absorbers, EP strengtheners and so on and so on, are all part of the additives that get added to the base oil. Hence why you get cheap oil from Repco and Supercheap and expensive oils. It all comes down to what is added and not that the "oil" itself is good or not. exactly. Which is why oil is quite important as without it you have no base oil to make all the differeing typs of lube's. As for oil as a lubricator. it depends on what you are lubricating. For a 2 stroke it has to be a oil but for a CV it has to be a grease... and the best are highly synthisized from Mineral base stock oils of high quality then have some very good Additives used for many differing reasons. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 When you look at just the lubication side of oil we would be buggered without it. Sure we probably could develop Vegetable oils like the good out days of Castor oil, but think about all the hydro and wind generators that need lubricaion for all the moving parts! without it we could still be living with fireplaces for light, heating and cooking. This would get the greens up - whale oil....... you can't make a sail from a whale, however there will come a time when the saved whales population is thus that to voyage upon the oceans without seeing/ bopping into one will be a thing of the past and the fiji/ noumea races we do now will be looked on in awe Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 But what I am trying to say is that other things can be used as a base. Oil is used because in reality, it is cheap as far as oil goes. Remember that fuel is one of the main compnents refined, which leaves the heavier oils as a byproduct in many ways.Hence why it is cheap'ish kinda. Many of the additives are not oil based. Zinc in many differeing forms for instance, is used for lubrication, Heat transfer and acid nuetrilizing. If it comes to a pinch, we can find alternatives as a base to carry these additives and still have good performing lubrication. The reason why we don't is because oil is cheap and abundant. I bet research is being carried out though. Because there is one difference today than in our past and that is that people are thinking about alternatives as a part of conservation rather than cost. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crafty 1 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 But what I am trying to say is that other things can be used as a base. Oil is used because in reality, it is cheap as far as oil goes. Remember that fuel is one of the main compnents refined, which leaves the heavier oils as a byproduct in many ways.Hence why it is cheap'ish kinda. Many of the additives are not oil based. Zinc in many differeing forms for instance, is used for lubrication, Heat transfer and acid nuetrilizing. If it comes to a pinch, we can find alternatives as a base to carry these additives and still have good performing lubrication. The reason why we don't is because oil is cheap and abundant. I bet research is being carried out though. Because there is one difference today than in our past and that is that people are thinking about alternatives as a part of conservation rather than cost. Totally agree Wheels. When i left Castrol they had a big Rape Seed development trial going to try and develop a new base stock. They were concerned for the future and i think they put it on the back burner due to the oil shortage issues of the 80-90's suddenly vanishing. Link to post Share on other sites
too_tall 15 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 There are MASSIVE amounts of research going into "growing" oil - such as the Rapeseed oil mentioned above. Hempseed oil is also another option being looked into ( amongst many, many others ). Plants made the oil in the first place. What we need to do is figure out a way to get the oil rapidly as opposed to waiting many many thousands of years. But as for the cost of growing it - Oil based products may feel expensive now....... but just think about the cost of growing a hectare of rape - maybe $2K at a minimum, and thats based on todays fuel prices ( and fert prices ). I am not sure how much oil can be collected from a hectare of rape. Edit. A quick google search informs me that approx 1080L of oil is produced per hectare. That of course, is a hectare no longer producing food. Anyone see life getting VERY expensive? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Problem is it just doesn't have the same amount of energy compressed into it over millions of years. Oil, lignite, coal, diamonds - all the same stuff - carbon compressed to differing degrees. Think of it as energy density, compressed in like the beginning of a diamond. Almost like comparing today's fast grow Pinus Radiata vs teak, one grows in twenty years and is soft and less dense than say teak which grows much slower and is much denser... Its the same for the amount of energy contained, in fact all 'grown' oils are a bit of a farce in terms of energy content. Get 'Collapse' out from the local dvd store - interesting but slightly paranoid doco about a ex-DEA cop gone eco-economist in the 80's to now. Worth a watch. EE Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Different oil is why. Oil squeezed out of plants are not hydrocarbons. They are natural plant oils. Quite different beasts. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Compress it and let it rot down over a few million years and its the same Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Yep it's the compressing, rotting, cooking and a dash of time and you get the hydrocarbons. Although Plants make Coal, animals make oil. Link to post Share on other sites
chic014 0 Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Here's a video shot just this morning at Orokawa bay, 30 mins walk north of Waihi Beach. Two tugs (Wainui and Maui) pulling line astern attached to a hook on the far corner of the container which was about half buried in the sand. Corner twisted over and then hook comes undone. Was a pristine beach only accessible by boat or foot and now has lots of lengths of timber and a mangled container in the middle of it http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=101 ... =2&theater Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Rocket Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Anyone else notice that it is now 4 days since that liner rolled over and no moves to remove fuel oil... And that on a calm sea in the middle of a reserve. They should have ripped it all out by now shouldn't they? Link to post Share on other sites
Murky 1 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Your point is clear and yet...another inexplicable incident (this time with fatalities), another captain facing charges and another trashed environment = I would still expect the locals to be questioning "is this the best that could have been done?". Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crafty 1 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Anyone else notice that it is now 4 days since that liner rolled over and no moves to remove fuel oil... And that on a calm sea in the middle of a reserve. They should have ripped it all out by now shouldn't they? Different scenario i think. 1. No fuel leaking 2. Calm sea. 3. Italians don't much care foe the envioment likke us! 4. They are still seqarching for surviviors Link to post Share on other sites
Murky 1 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Or possibly not: Italy's cruise liner tragedy is turning into an environmental crisis, as rough seas battering the stricken mega-ship raised fears that fuel might leak into pristine waters off Tuscany that are part of a protected sanctuary for dolphins, porpoises and whales.Waters that had remained calm for the first three days of the rescue turned choppy overnight, shifting the wreckage of the Costa Concordia a few centimetres and suspending divers' searches for those unaccounted for. Italy's environmental minister raised the alarm about a potential environmental catastrophe if any of the 2,300 tonnes of fuel begins to leak into the pristine waters off Giglio, which are popular with scuba divers and form part of the protected Tuscan archipelago. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/ar ... d=10779208 Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 We need visionaries like the guys in this article: http://www.waihekegulfnews.co.nz/other-news/sailing-into-the-past-with-an-eye-to-the-future.html Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Yep it's the compressing, rotting, cooking and a dash of time and you get the hydrocarbons. Although Plants make Coal, animals make oil.A similar process will also get oil from plants. Don't know if motors work that well running Hash Oil though. Link to post Share on other sites
floatsome 0 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Hopefully the Guv'mint will be aware of this when it comes time to settle the bills: http://www.joc.com/container-shipping/c ... st-quarter Link to post Share on other sites
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