Marshy 30 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Sounds like a yacht racing hit by another "Vessell" which is another way of saying a stinkboat? Agreed! - I certainly did Station Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 OK, I'm checking out of this now, having just spoken with someone who was on the scene and saw it all happen, the build-up etc. From what I've heard I'm sure there will be an investigation and potentially prosecution from the facts that will be gathered officially. AC Out. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crafty 1 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 OK, I'm checking out of this now, having just spoken with someone who was on the scene and saw it all happen, the build-up etc. From what I've heard I'm sure there will be an investigation and potentially prosecution from the facts that will be gathered officially. AC Out. Good call AC. I,m sure the investigation will not involve any of those that posted here. Unless of course their computer is linked to a 24-7 harbour webcam. Link to post Share on other sites
ec12nz 1 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 24-7 harbour webcam One her looking right at that area. http://www.sitecam.co.nz/auckland_webcam/ I'm sure thay will have data in their cache Link to post Share on other sites
Grinna 2 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Technically under the Colregs a stand on vessel has an obligation to behave in a predictable manner (i.e hold their course) until it is clear that the give way vessel is not going to give way. At that point the stand on vessel has a duty under the Colregs to avoid the collision. So, even if you've got right of way, you're supposed to take whatever actions necessary to avoid the collision and failure to do so (evidenced by the fact that there was a collision) means that the stand on vessel is also partly to blame. It sucks, but that's the international collision regulations for you. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Was Gypsy under sail at the time? Link to post Share on other sites
DrWatson 375 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Technically under the Colregs a stand on vessel has an obligation to behave in a predictable manner (i.e hold their course) until it is clear that the give way vessel is not going to give way. At that point the stand on vessel has a duty under the Colregs to avoid the collision. You have a duty to avoid the collision, yes. but only if you can do so. You must take what action you are able to to avoid. But if the action you can take still results in collision? When you are under sail you are already less able to maneuver. There's no rule that states you must have an engine you can turn on and use. In a crowded harbour, you'll be looking at 100 different boats at once. You can't tell which one of them is going to charge through and T-bone you until the last second. I had the same situation except i noticed about 30sec out. I was still run down by a yacht motoring with no one on the helm. Solo sailor down below. I blew the horn and took avoiding action - but had no where near enough time to start a motor. In that instance I fended. It was a similar size yacht to mine and i was able to deflect it and my yacht enough to turn a T-bone into a glancing blow. The Fucker didn't even stop... just yelled "Oh sorry" and carried on. Was I also then at fault for not avoiding? edit: forgot to mention there was very little wind at the time. Link to post Share on other sites
Grinna 2 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 DrW I'd be happy to be proved wrong, but my understanding is that even if you have right of way you can technically be found to have contributed to a collision by failing to avoid and must therefore share some of the blame. Now, if the reports are accurate (or even half so) and Gypsy was under sail (and I know the winds were pretty light in that area at that time) while Antaeus was motoring it seems crazy and extremely unfair to suggest that Gypsy was somehow at fault. It seems like its a clear cut case of power failing to give way to sail (though once again we're relying on reports of the incident) but my understanding is that there's this gotcha in the ColRegs. Sounding a horn or firing an anti-collision flare (pretty useless in daylight) or yelling and screaming might be deemed to be enough to exonerate you, I don't know. There's always the smart arse answer of "you should have realised sooner that a collision was imminent and acted accordingly" but once again that seems supremely unfair. If investigators were at all pragmatic it'd be a straightforward exercise to apportion responsibility, however, there is Rule 17( Rule 17 Action by Stand-on Vessel (a)(i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way of the other shall keep her course and speed. (ii) The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her maneuver alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in accordance with these Rules. ( When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision. ... Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Went through my camera and found this pic of Gypsy (Im sure this is Gypsy? ) - would have been taken less than an hour before her sad demise. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crafty 1 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Went through my camera and found this pic of Gypsy (Im sure this is Gypsy? ) - would have been taken less than an hour before her sad demise. A boat with a sail up but under motor is deemed... Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 A boat with a sail up but under motor is deemed... To have a canting keel or a wickedly serious sized beer fridge or if in Booboos case, a freakishly large stereo???? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crafty 1 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 A boat with a sail up but under motor is deemed... To have a canting keel or a wickedly serious sized beer fridge or if in Booboos case, a freakishly large stereo???? To be crap at sailing in the light KM be serious now! You know what I mean. To much cave diving Link to post Share on other sites
Grinna 2 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Don't think that photo was taken immediately prior to the incident Crafty .... just about an hour prior to. I think it's a big call to assume that Gypsy was motorsailing at the time of the collision because there's a photo of her from an hour before where she may (or may not) have been motoring. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Yea - at that stage we (on the Ponsonby Scow) were just putting our sails up like most people. It may have been around 1030 - 11. Our start was 11.30 classics were 11.35 and 11.40 I think when it happened we were off the end of the container terminals level with the costguard HQ - its not evidence! Just a photo I found in my collection from the day. Link to post Share on other sites
Chewing Gum 17 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=10782580 Link to post Share on other sites
Unicorn 6 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I think that "reasonable" may apply here, assuming that we have the story correct, Gypsy was unable to alter course due to the lack of wind. It would be unreasonable to expect her to avoid a collision with a craft bearing down on her at 7 knots if she was drifting. The suggestion of 7 knots is probably not accurate or helpful. With so many boats about and quite possibly within 200M of shore, it is likely that vessels should not have been exceeding 5 knots. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 KM be serious now! You know what I mean. To much cave diving Sorry, yes I do and no sadly, too big a sea surge to get into many. Your post was just too big of an opening to be left alone Anywho - As I understand it powers that be have spoken to many and have a reasonably good idea what happened. I don't know what that is yet as they are still checking bits and bobs. It appears to have happened in front of a lot of people so I'm sure we'll all know more fine detail in due course. I'd expect the whole thing will be on the MSA website 'Accident investigations' section soon, along with their conclusions. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Damn shame about gypsy. The classic owners put so much effort and $ into these amazing boats, that it is tragic to see this one go down. Hopefully the injured sailor makes a quick recovery. I suppose the boat will be a total loss, but would be an incredible story if it could be saved. Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I agree with KM. I spoke to a good friend who was in a key eyewitness position and who has enough boating experience to mean I trust his judgement on estimates of speed, distance and timing etc. And compared to his account, the speculation here hasn't quite nailed to true chain of events. So as KM says, hopefully the MSA will announce their initial findings soon. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crafty 1 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 KM be serious now! You know what I mean. To much cave diving Sorry, yes I do and no sadly, too big a sea surge to get into many. Your post was just too big of an opening to be left alone Anywho - As I understand it powers that be have spoken to many and have a reasonably good idea what happened. I don't know what that is yet as they are still checking bits and bobs. It appears to have happened in front of a lot of people so I'm sure we'll all know more fine detail in due course. I'd expect the whole thing will be on the MSA website 'Accident investigations' section soon, along with their conclusions. Yeah correct. That was what I was I lying with my post. There are many scenarios that can happen in a motored vessel v a another vessel, depending on it mode of power, and rights of way. Some of the comments here are pure guess work. Even bullshitters like us km have to bow to some bloody experts here on the is thread. Link to post Share on other sites
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