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Should professionals/amateurs be split?


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The heading sucks, I couldn't put it togethere in a few words.

 

I was reading the dogfight going on in the Caribbean where one of the J boat owners spat the dummy coz the other boat had a team of professionals and he wouldn't get into a money war.

 

Now if you look around the planet most the big events are fully professional, and it ia a fact that the basic amateur trying to play the game would have as much chance as Mothership going 3 rounds with David Tua. (Even if we could find the funding how do you think a Crew.org.nz entry on the VOR would fare?)

 

So would you prefer to see complete separation, a free for all, or some kind of compromise?

 

I'm slowly moving towards complete separation.

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...a fact that the basic amateur trying to play the game would have as much chance as Mothership going 3 rounds with David Tua.

 

Now that would just be silly...

 

Although, when I was at uni, I used to train with a guy Dave who was the then Open Class Karate champion. Brilliant from an exercise point of view in a lot ways, and for adding new meaning to the words bruised and battered :wtf: :crazy: :shock:

 

Although, the only broken bone he's had was the hairline fracture he received one day while we were training.

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I'd also like to see a clearer definition of professional.

 

No kissin' on the mouth, ain't it? :angel:

 

How would you like to see it defined? Individuals who's income is derived from professional sailing only, those who receive remuneration for sailing activity in any capacity, or... ?

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Did we knot just witness the same thing - accepted with a lot more grace and dignity - in the Y88 Nationals? As you pointed out in your coverage, Squid, it has happened so often that a trophy was created for the first owner-driver - you posted that article off the Squaddy website. Would have been better if the announcements/results generated from that event had given a bit more acknowledgement to whoever was the first owner-driver.

 

I would see it as inevitable that, if there is good racing to be had, the good guys - who seem to be predominantly but not exclusively sailmakers in this country - are going to want to come sailing. So what do you do? Make one or two boats sail round the track in their own division? Or, as I see being the case in NZ, if you are the first non-rockstar crew to finish, be proud of that? After all, most of us are contenting ourselves each weekend with improving on what we have done in the past (or at least not making the same mistakes), regardless of whether we are first or fifth or fifteenth.

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To me, some realistic New Zealand scenarios would be:

 

- an owner who is keen to do well in an upcoming regatta spends some money on preparing his boat. Not necessarily huge money - say a haulout and clean, some new sheets or halyards and a couple of new sails. He comments to the loft owner that since he is a good customer, it would be great if a couple of the boys jumped on board. Or maybe the loft owner, being in business after all, recognises that for himself. Or maybe the boys are good sales people, or they are good sailmakers who want to see how their work shapes up against the competition, or maybe they just want to be on a boat that looks like it is going to do well.

 

- a new boat is nearing completion. Everyone who has worked on it is proud of their contribution and keen to see if their ideas and concepts are as quick as they had hoped. The owner is a bit daunted at the prospect of taking a bigger/faster boat out, also mindful of the watching eyes, and wants reliable people on board for those early outings.

 

In both cases, the crews would be marine industry professionals who have benefited financially from the money invested in preparing the boat, and yet most likely they will be taking part in the regatta on their own time.

 

In both cases, as a result of being well-prepared across a whole raft of aspects, the boat is likely to be up there in the placings. And in both cases, someone could say: "Of course you did well, you had all the guns on board."

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Guest Rocket

I have no problem with racing against the pros - have had to do it since I was 12. Where they shine is less on the race track more in the preparation - we coud all learn from that...

 

So bring it on all comers welcome - makes the rare victory sweeter. They ain't supermen they are just yachties that happen to do it for a living - good on them!

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Yes it still works OK here as seen in the Y88 nats, but we are only at the beginning of the slope - (when was the last amateur entry in the VOR?)

If you look overseas the big events are pro, end of story.

 

 

Definitions, I would try to make it simpler than it is, say anyone who is on the water more than 100 days/year is a pro.

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I agree with Rocket - I've someone wants to spend 1k - 50k - 100k or 1mil on winning the nats with a gun crew so be it. It'll help bring the overall standard of the rest of us ametuers up and make the 'racing scene' as a whole more interesting. Just because one crew has a bunch of pros on board doesn't mean you can't show up with a bunch of muppets!

I always enjoy racing against guns - you see something new they do and learn from it - you try just a little harder between rums and enjoy those lucky wins just a little more!

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(when was the last amateur entry in the VOR?)

That's a fraught question to debate - surely it comes down to who can take that much time off work, go backwards on the mortgage, lose their wife and kids because they can't travel home and are bringing no money into the household...oh, and be wet and cold and on the edge for a weeks on end as well. If that person exists, I would not want to sail with them.

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When is a professional a professional - every time he's on a boat, every time he's on a boat getting paid for it? Someone who is in the marine industry?

 

Someone who once was paid but now retired but still a considered a rockstar whenever they crew or helm on a yacht?

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I heard the Owner of Hanuman ( the new J) couldn't handle the chop in Antigua during the practice days, and didn't want to get his ass handed to him by a couple of 80 year old boats, so he kicked up this fuss.

 

On a J you need guys who know what they're doing. There aren't many of them in the world, at the moment probably not a lot more than there are spaces for on the other two J's currently racing.

 

There's also a shortage of pro sailors at the moment because the super Maxi "Speedboat" is out sea trialling. she races with a compliment of 32 apparently. Think of the price tag on that.

 

Either way absolutely nothing to do with the argument raised.

My 2c, they should look closer at what they call professional. Just cos I design rigs for superyachts doesn't mean I'm a sh!t hot sailor on a Young 11.

 

know what i mean?

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Americans wining Squid, on the topic of professional sailors they're world leaders in wining.

 

Won't mince words, if you're not prepared to lose, don't turn up. If you wine that your competition might actually be, like, quite good at what they do, what's that say about your own opinion of yourself and if you succeed at getting your opposition excluded, what's that say about the value of what you may then win?

 

Whether you receive money or not for what you do has precisely zero impact on your ability to sail. As a generalisation, 'professional' sailors are quite good at what they do, but this is because they practice and refine their skill not because they get paid, so what in effect they're arguing is that people that put the effort into being good shouldn't be allowed to race people who don't? Me, I'm one of those simple people who think effort deserves reward in competition and if someone beats me because they worked harder at it, well if I want to win then perhaps I should be working harder than they do, if I don't want to make that effort, that's my choice and I take the cost in lesser success, maybe more fun, but less success.

 

If we're going to separate out those who make a living from sailing, should we also exclude out those who inherited bucket loads of money, after all don't they have effectively the same advantage in freedom of time to refine skills? But, let's not stop there, what about all those retired people, all that free time and those extra years of experience they have, surely an unfair advantage, then there's the unemployed, all that free time and as a tax payer I'm paying for it, perhaps that makes them professional sailors too.

 

The other aspect often raised is that it's 'buying a win'. If your sole contribution to winning is paying the bills for others to do the winning, well, paying is certainly a critical component to yacht racing but personally rewarding, don't think so. I struggle to see anyone getting satisfaction from a win when they're not in there actively contributing with the rest of the team on the race course.

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No. everyone should race together.

 

Sailing needs more participants at every level and splitting fleets won't achieve that.

 

We already have general handicap results to take into account any disparity that may occur between gun pro crews and weekend warriors (or muppets).

 

For Joe average the "raising of the game" that occurs when the really good guys are sailing regularly is priceless and will impart on them skills that they will never lose.

 

Who cares about some whinging "J" boat owner anyway ?

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Goes against the natural inclination to strive to be better too. All you have to do is look at how hard bottom-of-the-table teams fight to avoid relegation, even though it would mean an easier ride and not losing all the time.

 

If ever fleets were to be split along those lines, I think you'd find a hell of a lot more amateurs lining up for a dispensation to go out there for a chance of taking one off the pros, than the other way round.

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Having been on both sides of the fence I think there is both good and bad.

 

I doubt splitting them would work but I do think there is a case to make sure the 'everyday crews' are catered for equally at any event.

 

Like was the winner of the recent 'Y88 Nats', or as I heard it refereed to once 'The 88 NZ Open', the best team of the ones sailing 88's all season or was it the boat that stacked the crew better than all the others?

 

It all depends on what you're trying to achieve.

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So if you sailed a class of boat all season and then got beaten by some guys who jumped on for one regatta, what should you get? An apology from them and be allowed to drink out of their trophy? :lol:

 

Interestingly although I understand they don't own the boat, one or a couple of the individuals came very close to buying it a while back. So if you are a crew of professionals, who are also mates, not being paid to sail on a boat that one of you owns, what then?

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