Should professionals/amateurs be split?

[Murky 1]

I know it is a sign of losing it when you start replying to your own posts but here is another perspective:

 

If you were running a regatta and wanted to publicise the event or the class of boat by getting a really high-profile crew to turn up and compete, how much would you expect to have to shell out?

[Guest]

So the 3-6 cockies spending their time, money and effort all year to get themselves and boat up to a point they can beat the other locals and then go to a Nats to see if they can beat the locals from other towns would be better off renting a flash crew and go duck shooting with all their new found spare time instead?

 

Hmmmm... Are you sure that's encouraging upskilling of local crews/boats and participation in the lead up events/series? Knot to mention a bloody good excuse to skive off from the large list of 'To dos' the wife has waiting?

 

Knot knocking the pros but just mentioning there is possible downsides sitting just next door to the upsides. It's knot an easy one to answer really. Many sports have already been there done that on this subject, some have splits some haven't. Again, it all depends on what you want as the end result.

 

Who owns or doesn't or brought what boat when for what with who?

 

Why bother publicising an event like a Nats in NZ in the 1st place? The general public and media just don't care or have the slightest interest. Go suss the 18's this weekend. Some spectacular (or there would be if there was wind) looking boats and racing dead smack on the viewers doorstep. I'd say the viewing audience will number less than 100 in total. And if you are referring to a recent 30fter Worlds I didn't see anything like even that low number with telescopes on the beach watching.

[Guest]

Should the two be separated? no, never.

Should 'amateur' teams be recognised, yes.

 

The 88's at least have it well sorted, the respect / mana / call it what you like from winning the tanaka cup does it right, anyone at the prizegiving would have seen that.

Not allowing pro's at the event would ruin it.

 

Luckily the class hasn't, yet, have to deal with a fully pro team also being an 'owner driver'.

 

 

not aware of any of the winning 88 crew holding anything other than NZ passports?

[Guest]

I'm assuming these rockstars aren't actually paid to sail by the owners.

I've not really got a problem with that I guess, but if you can get some gun sailors to sail your boat for you for the weekend good on you.

Someone has already said here that they are only able to get these guys if they have put the work/cash into their yachts and are fully optimised. Gun crew is the icing on the cake.

I just wonder how the regular crew who sat on the wharf feel about it, or do they think some of the kudos rubs off on them too.

I would probably be looking for another ride anyway, because some of the groundwork getting the yacht up to speed has been done by the regular crew too.

 

I read on the forum somewhere or in a link that there are 80 Y88's in Auckland.

Where were the 75% that didn't race?

Not enough Rockstar sailors to go around maybe

[Murky 1]

I read on the forum somewhere or in a link that there are 80 Y88's in Auckland.

Where were the 75% that didn't race?

It's a really competitive event and not every boat or owner is prepared for it - it's not the sort of regatta you turn up at to make up the numbers. As some of the guys who took part commented in the thread at the time, make one mistake and you lose five places.

 

The number of entries is in line with the boats that are racing regularly, down to weight and with good rigs, sails and crews. I guess on one hand it would be good to see more boats out there; on the other, anyone that isn't used to sailing their boats at that level is going to be a hazard on start lines etc - there are always some very close crossings (and a few that don't quite get across).

 

I would put myself in that last category.

[Murky 1]

Anyway, the original catalyst for this topic was not 88s but the J class which are somewhat more of a handful (up to 135ft long and more than 160 tons displacement). Which is a big chunk of boat if two of them come together and unfortunately they do, as in the photo - this one, coincidentally, was almost exactly a year ago. Full story here indicates there were professionals on the crew during the incident but you can understand why the owners would want to go down that path.

[Guest]

I'm assuming these rockstars aren't actually paid to sail by the owners.

Why would you assume that? I have heard stories of some pretty amazing pay packages for pro sailors.

[B00B00 310]

My view on this is that it would be imposible to seperate the Pros from the Amateurs in a reasonable way. I also think its a pretty stupid idea, alot of people wouldnt like being put in the 'B' (amateur) div and winning it would be like getting a medal at the special olympics, you could say you are 'almost good sailors'.

Persoanally I would like to mix it with the pros.

It has been mentioned here before and is an important part of it, why should the guys who are natural born sailors or guys who have worked hard to learn and better them selves in their chosen sport be seperated from someone who wants to do no prep or training, sailing an unprepared boat and claiming 'amateur' when they get beaten by people who put the effort in. pros get paid to sail because they are good at it and therefore people would pay to have that skill on board their boat. its worth noting that lot of the current and upcoming pros had a really tough time getting to where they are in the sport. look at Adam Minoprio and his team. they roughed it for 2 years really strugging finacially but putting everything into it competing in the world circut before it paid off and look at them now, world champs but completley self made. why should they be classed different from anyone else racing on the local circut.

 

I can tell you that to get a good crew you need a well prepared boat, the 2 go hand to hand in most cases as the talented crew know what setups work and what needs to be done to make the boat go fast. no good sailor wants to trim bad sails with bad deck gear and old ropes on a boat with a rough and dirty bottom. they will find a boat/owner who gives them the tools to make the boat go fast.

 

some people would consider me a pro due to my job and offically i am (isaf status) but i can tell you that i have never been paid more than expenses (and occasionaly my standard salary from North sails but never cash from a boat owner) to race a boat and in NZ never even been paid expenses, I do it because I enjoy it and its the only sport im any good at (and even that is debatable). I figure there are a shitload of people in exactly the same program in NZ at the moment and we would get singled out as pros if there was a split.

Pros spend so much time racing on other peoples programs that its sometimes great to come back to NZ and do some stuff for your self running your own program, it gives you so much more satisfaction.

 

Anyway, my 2 cents worth

[Guest]

Should professionals/amateurs be split?

 

NO

 

 

dito with you BooBoo.

 

having sailed with and against a few pros, some of whom have gone all the way to the top. I would knot like to see a 'special olympics' division. race against the best on the day and at least learn something from their performance to improve your own.

 

if you want to put the time in, preparing yourself, your team and your boat - wouldn't you want to compete with the best?

 

if you only want to turn up on the day and wine on about the pros beating you them find another game

[Guest]

Harsh call on there Special Olympics there Boo.

 

I'm sure many have worked a lot harder to get there than many yachting pros or many of us have worked to get where we are, and with a shitload less resources yet more hurdles. Belittling their efforts by inferring they are 2nd rate is uncalled for.

[B00B00 310]

Belittling their efforts by inferring they are 2nd rate is uncalled for.

 

well im sorry but isnt spliting the Pros (good sailors) and the amateur (not as good sailors) already making a second rate division?

I personally think splitting them from the pros is belittling their efforts.

[Guest]

Ummmm Booboo - I think he was referring to the special Olympians

[B00B00 310]

Fair Call then. My bad.

[Gappy 9]

Boobooo

 

I agree as I am in the same boat have been paid expense's never in NZ though and do it here becuase I enjoy it but I am classed as a Pro which is pretty hard becuase of my job and sailing with customers overseas etc but never been paid.

 

I think we need these guys like Dean and Adam etc sailing in our fleets as it only makes the others in the fleet want to get better so its go to be all good.

 

We stop them sailin in the fleets and people like us you will loose half the fleets straight away.

 

Cheers

 

Gappy

[Guest]

1/2 the Akl fleet are Pros if you take the ISAF Regs to heart they are that wide ranging. And they took out the part that most would fall into changing them from having the likes of Boo, Gappy and many others as semi-pro to full pro. Weird.

[Marshy 30]

No pros shouldnt be seperated from Amatuers. There are guys like me that are "Pro" because we work in the industry. But we get great pleasure out of getting out sailing with mates on a fun boat and going fast too...

 

The ISAF pro rule is a bit funny like that though, I know of a few people who are ranked as pro but barely know how to sail!! (And im not talking about booboo there!!!) I mean people who would struggle to know what side to sit on!

[Guest]

I think a few of us, or maybe just me, have been working on a different view of just what a Pro is in this thread. My thinking is Dean, Russ and etc are Pros, where the Booboos, Gappys and the likes are just good, occasionally very good , but knot Pros as such or at least when using 'common sense' eyes rather than ISAF eyes.

 

Agree Marshy. I know a fair few who get seasick driving over the harbour bridge yet are still Pros in the eyes of ISAF.

 

Why they deleted the 'working in the game but knot actually being paid to race ON yachts' category out of the Regs is a mystery. It only seems to have made the line a lot more grey and fuzzy.

 

I'd be interested to know why they dropped that one out if anyone happens to know.

[Murky 1]

If the regs catch guys like Booboo and Marshy because they work in the marine industry, have you considered your own position?

 

Obviously it would be a loss to NZ yachting - not to mention ridiculous - if the situation ever arose where any of you were to grab a couple of mates from work and jump on your own boats for a spur-of-the-moment rum race and find yourselves designated a "pro entry".

[MrWolf 0]

I guess at the moment the "test" comes every year at the BMW regatta.

 

I know I can't sail in that because I work in the industry.

 

even if we use the KM test of the "elite" paid sailors (i.e. those sailors whose source of income comes from sailing), which is unrealistic because it isn't the ISAF standard, we should still all welcome sailing against all comers.

 

The ISAF standard seems to be about pro's being those in a position to extract the best from the boats so far as sail shapes and tuning is concerned.

But you could argue by pulling in the main all the way you are having a bigger effect, so that rules out everyone !

 

But here's the thing.

The snooty dick head moaning in the "J"'s has just spent millions on his boat.

He doesn't want to spend anymore so wants the others to stop paying crew.

 

He wants them to have a spending limit if you like.

 

But he probably spent more than them in the first place.

 

If that logic were to follow, then it would be like a sailing salary cap,

 

no you can't buy a new sail you are over your limit !

You can't re antifoul you are over your budget !

 

Its not a bad concept, to limit costs, but its either all things or nothing !

 

Some classes like spending limits, but seriously not in "open" unrestricted racing, thanks .

[DrWatson 374]

In a one design fleet, I'd love to race against the best. Then at least that way I can tell just how badly I suck in terms of international abilities. And I may be pleasantly surprised and even learn something.

 

In a mixed fleet of old sh!tters like mine and hot-as-the-sun carbon racers, it doesn't make diddly squat difference. The rockstars on the carbon racer would be unlikely to be able to coax a vastly better placing out of my boat than me. I say that not to diminish the rockstars or to pump myself up, but because the pig sails better backwards than forwards, and through owner inattention and basic laziness is often not prepared well enough to place better than dead last (or DNF if you're unlucky and the tide changes before the finish... lol )

 

What's the difference between the rockstar pros and the average sailor? Mostly brains, experience and teamwork. Are we afraid to increase our wisdom? Are we admitting that we're stupider? All can be improved in anyone of us. It's not like the pros are all (much)bigger and stronger, or have six arms each, or extra mental capacities lacking in the average sailor.

 

So, in a word or many, I think the rockstars mixing it with the amateurs is a good thing. For one, many of us will never beat them, but if you have a similar and similarly prepared boat you might, or come close, and if you can come close to rockstars then does not a little of their shine rub off on you also?

For another thing it keeps us real. What's the use in feeling like a hero by beating the 6 other boats and crews you've raced against for the last 3y in the pond down the back of the garden? It doesn't really help NZ sailing as a sport.

 

On the other hand I think sometimes that a little more recognition of the achievements of the less well heeled and those who've had to climb a much steeper road to even get to the race course, as it were, could be given.

 

In how many other sports can you say you have competed against the worlds best? It helps prevent the creeping image of sailing being only a rich man's sport.

 

Also in the case of the J-boats which started the thread, neither of the owners of those boats would be poor -at least not before the collision. If one rich guy hires rockstars and the other rich guy groups together his *dream team* of mates and old salts from the clubhouse bar and loses then whines about it, tastes like sour grapes really. It's a competition after all. Don't enter if you're not prepared to lose.