WHen do you have to stop sailing to weather?

[Guest]

I've moved Dr Watson's post to a new thread, interested to hear what people have to add,perhap personal experiences giving type of boat and conditions.

 

 

 

 

'Tis a shame indeed, that someone as well prepared as this should lose his boat.

 

I am interested in what the greater collective experience here considers of the following. I only ask because of a more academic interest.

 

It's hard to imagine, as Squid said, any boat being able to claw to windward in 70knts. But his comment got me thinking. I wonder where the average max wind speed for clawing to windward is for the majority of boats that we sail nowadays.

And I wonder if this max windspeed is enhanced or decreased by a more traditional full keel hull shape and a heavier displacement. At some point the ratio of productive wind area to overall windage presented by a vessel must slip to a point at which effective drive is impossible. I imagine that this point is reached earlier in the wind range by a high wooded shallow displacement fin keeler than a Bristol Cutter, for example.

 

In my mind I could see that an older style full keel boat could possibly carry some effective sail area into a higher wind range purely based on this ratio of sail area/total windage multiplied by some coefficient of the total lateral plane.

 

Thoughts?

[PaulR 3]

The traditional response should be:

 

"GENTLEMEN NEVER GO TO WINDWARD".

[Marshy 30]

On the SR26 its bear away and get that gennaker hooked up boys this wont take long to get home...

[Guest]

Ok I'll go first.

 

On a Cav 32 I would choose to stop sailing upwind around 30kn, but know I could make ground to windward in winds well over 40kn. Over 50kn you might think you are sailing but chances are you are not making any ground, over 60kn impossible to even to even stay hove to, only option to turn , run under bare poles and a drogue.

 

I have sailed to weather in a Cav 36 in 50kn fully crewed, bloody slow hard work, in reality probably not making any real progress as above.

 

Ericson 35 - as above except didn't have the faith in the boat i had in the Cav so probably called it quits quite a bit sooner.

 

Peterson 44 - heavy pig, wouldn't go to weather in good conditions.

 

Most boats I think will hit the wall somewhere between 40 and 50, but a lot of the cruising fleet have crap all over their decks, fixed props, and less than perfect sails so knock 5-10 kn off that.

[John B 106]

Since this discussion has come from the solo sailor thread, he was heading into shoaling water and couldn't sail on a reach to slide out of it for fear of rollover because of steep and breaking waves.

I've had a lovely time sailing in 40 knots in flat water and had the living daylights kicked out of me in 25 in rough, so I tend to think its sea state which is more relevant. Its tempting to link wind and sea together and I guess thats right to a point ,but its a bit broad just to talk wind strengths, I think. What do you guys reckon? If he'd had been another 100 miles off , would the sea state have allowed him to reach or sail rather than run with drogues? No criticism implied BTW, just a theoretical question.

[Fogg 427]

I've had a lovely time sailing in 40 knots in flat water and had the living daylights kicked out of me in 25 in rough, so I tend to think its sea state which is more relevant.

 

I think that's a very good point.

[Guest]

Since this discussion has come from the solo sailor thread, he was heading into shoaling water and couldn't sail on a reach to slide out of it for fear of rollover because of steep and breaking waves.

I've had a lovely time sailing in 40 knots in flat water and had the living daylights kicked out of me in 25 in rough, so I tend to think its sea state which is more relevant. Its tempting to link wind and sea together and I guess thats right to a point ,but its a bit broad just to talk wind strengths, I think. What do you guys reckon? If he'd had been another 100 miles off , would the sea state have allowed him to reach or sail rather than run with drogues? No criticism implied BTW, just a theoretical question.

 

You are right JohnB, I was assuming open water etc.

To answer your question, in 70kn no, 60 kn maybe, 50 kn probably. IMHO

[John B 106]

I just bring it up after our experiences last year on the way to Tonga. We'd been quite happy in 35 or 40 knots broad reaching away, and then we ran into particularly large seas, pretty confused and steep ' right in the middle of the ocean'. That , and the approaching potential of a lee shore in the Kermadecs caused us to heave to and park for the night. It wasn't until much later that I realised that we'd crossed the Colville ridge , and that even in the middle of the ocean there are features that'll make life different.

[PaulR 3]

NZ23 chart shows from 70 to 50 nm offshore of Raglan, the water depth reduces from over 1200m to 100m in that 20nm; rather a steep change / underwater hillside which will have current and wind factors causing a wild sea state, upwellings etc at the surface.

[Guest]

To answer the specific question.

 

Its many years ago but Kate and I sailed into Wellington harbour in 65 knots northerly under a deep reef and storm jib. Making it to the boat harbour in about double the usual time.

 

The 65 knots and gusting were confirmed by beacon hill. The wind was pulling the flesh back on our faces.

 

The boat was the Swanson 30 Castanet -a full keel displacement type - and a boat I would happily own again.

 

My main concern was missing stays in the steeper seas off the Eastbourne shore and I seem to remember that at least once we wore ship rather than going about.

 

I think, therefore, John B's comments about sea state are relevant - ie, perhaps the most important factor.

 

As to heaving-to, some years later in my Chico 30 (fin keeler, but narrow and fullsome by modern standards) we successfully hove to in 60 plus knots for 36 hours or so 200 miles north of NZ.

 

Pretty uncomfortable, sick-making, and noisy, but if you stick in your bunk, relatively safe.

[Fogg 427]

I'm feeling seasick just reading about all of this.

 

And the last couple of weeks has confirmed my fear that NZ is not as sailing-friendly as I once thought.

 

I've met a couple of round the world cruising boats who have made it all the way from Europe to NZ and reckoned that the worst, most frightening and unpredictable piece of ocean they had experience was the last 400-500nm into/out of NZ. One couple got such a hiding on their way down to NZ from the islands from an out of season cyclone they were seriously worried about the departure - hence I got a nice ride as a useful extra pair of hands 'just in case' from Opua up to New Cal one year.

[Guest]

I think that mr Orge, sums it up pretty well from my personal experience. It pecomes a fine line between personal and boat preservation. With modern, or better communications if in doubt try and get outside advice. Perhaps with early warning Alan may have been able to change direction and run away from it to gain enough sea room.

With most forcast sites you can get 7 days warning. With setting off with those print outs and watching the barometer, wind strength and direction you can get a pretty good idea of whats happening. If in doubt contact someone. In Alans case the answer wasn't good and he and authorities made the right ( however difficult ) call.

[Guest]

this is interesting....i never really thought of not being able to make way to windward... but didn't think of being out in 70knots trying to either..

oracle will happily move to windward with quite small sails in 40kn true...making about 4.0vmg 2 reefs and no.3 jib... partly furled too..

this was last tried in the poor knights race last november...after 2 dyas of constant 40ish winds in the gulf... i know not out in the tasman...but we were in quite some swell 3-4 m breaking with a fair tide against us makig it inside sail rock.... on this occasion.

previously coming back to NZ from Maloolaaba?. we were in an 1980's aluminium Ed Debois old race yacht... luckly with 6 onboard of varing abilitiees.. but as we got tot the shallowing towards NZ....well about 3-400nm off...we were engulfed by a storm....one minute under blue skies and spinnaker ...6 hours later we were down to trisil and storm jib...and stayed like that for 3 days untill inthe shelter of the three kings.... 9-10 m swells breaking...winds off the clock....1 hours shifts at the helm...lots of cold food ...(cooker stopped as it was too wet).. leaky on leaks on windows and hatches... were glad to get to BOI. and parked it theree.. owner came back aweelk later and took it to akl... so am guessing in 40-50kn head winds we were making about 120nm a day ...fully crewed in a boat set up for it..

[B00B00 310]

I think the relevance of who's on board is also important, family/kids/shortcrewed is very different from fully crewed racing or cruising with a large and competent crew.

having enough helmsmen to drive the boat in the rough stuff means you can push it further, autopilot or short crew means you cant.

 

I have been in some freakish weather, but have never deployed a drogue or sea anchor. I think unless you are desperate they are more trouble than they are worth, deploying them and retrieving them (especially shorthanded) can lead to major issues and broken gear/people.

I have however hove-to a number of times.

 

I can tell you a Y11 will go upwind at around 4-6kts in 50kts offshore(south pacific) with just a storm jib only and is safe and easy to steer.

 

A ross 1066 will go upwind at 5-7kts with storm jib and trisail in 55kts (wellington harbour entrance) but you have to be on your toes and drive it properly. Tacking is also very hard.

 

A 50ft 20ton gaff rigged ketch will go 2-3 kts sideways with a backed double reefed staysail and double reefed mizzen in 80+kts and was surprisingly comfortable sitting at about 50TWA creating a nice slick to weather but we did take one really bad knockdown before sheltering behind an oil tanker to put the boat and crew back together(wairapa coast).

 

A 100ft canting keeler will do 15kts into 45+kts and will be VERY hard to slow down(mid atlantic gulf stream-horrible place). VERY uncomfortble with people getting thrown around. one dislocated shoulder and then doing 32kts downwind (wrong direction) while trying to put his shoulder back in!

 

A Thompson 850 will do 5-6kts into 40kts (cape Palliser 2 handed), not comfortable and hard work to drive but very fast, high and efficient. Actually faster than alot of 35-40ft more cruising style boats.

 

An open 60 canting keeler will go downwind at 23kts in 70+kts (cape horn) under jury rig with a boom as a mast(after ripping the chainplates out and loosing the mast in a near pitch pole at 30kts boatspeed in 50kts wind and the biggest seas i think its possible to ever get, mid southern ocean, it just dropped down the wave and into the back of the next BIGTIME) and just a storm jib on but doesnt go upwind very well (unless tied to a salvage tug doing 10kts...) One thing I noticed when the waves get REALLY big is that in the troughs there is very little wind and on the top of the waves its really quite windy. Not something you would expect.

[Fogg 427]

Fantastic Booboo! The voice of experience speaks as opposed to most of us postulating and speculating!

[Unicorn 6]

Progress to windward is definitely much more related to sea state than to pure windspeed. Sea size is not really the issue, it is the steepness of the waves and how they are breaking that determines how much a yacht gets pushed backwards and how likely it is to get rolled. I have experience of putting the mast in the water in only 40 knots, going upwind off Stephens Island in a fairly heavy half tonner - thanks to a very large, breaking wave.

 

Sea state is subject to lots of variables, not just windspeed. Particularly aggravating factors are wind against tide, changing wind direction (giving crossing waves) and shallow water. I suspect rapidly changing air pressure and windspeed can also be bad, as this seems to make for breaking seas.

 

In tough conditions I think that having enough speed to maintain steerage is essential to be able to keep away from the worst bits of dangerous breaking water. Storm sails operate close to the water, so lose a lot of power in the troughs. That, in combination with gravity and breaking waves pushing backwards as you rise up each wave, is what makes it hard to go upwind in big seas.

 

We thought out a strategy on a Cav 32 to run the engine in survival conditions, to maintain momentum up the front of waves. Fortunately it never came to that, as we were heading downwind in the the worst conditions we met. In those conditions we kept a storm jib on and were very actively steering - continuously adjusting our angle to the waves. Too much side on and it felt like being rolled was likely, too square and a pitchpole felt likely. I doubt any self steering could have coped. We did not have wind instruments, but at the time we were somewhere off Portland Island, and the lighthouse was reporting 87 knots.

 

Going upwind in 60-70 knots in Wellington harbour is very simple in comparison - no killer waves. But getting into a marina berth in those conditions is quite a challenge!

[Guest]

A R930 can average 2.1kts when hard on the nose in 45-55kts (46 peaking 54 as we pasted Bean rock according to the now casting) with only a baby headsail up. Slower in the seaway but a tad quicker in flat water. Bottom end to Bayswater last year. Kids downstairs asleep, me and the Wa drinking coffee in the cockpit. Once in the flat water it was surprisingly comfortable really.

 

The waves were the killer. Real hard work getting thru Motohie channel and the Issy Bay Triangle of doom, where I nearly pulled the pin and headed for cover.

 

I've never had to go to windward in anything much over about 40 in the open ocean. Both big nasties, 60 plus, have been up our bum. And concur with someones comment above about where the sh*t happens, everytime it's been real nasty has been 200-400nm off the NZ coast. Oh did have a shortish sh*t kicking in Bass Straight once, again the waves were the biggest issue, man they build up real fast in there. The other 8 times I've been through there it's been under motor due to lack of wind

 

It all depends on the boat, the wave state and the confidence you have in the boat.

[Guest]

Interestingly, the Wooden Boat Forum has picked up on this incident (Raglan Rescue) and our current thread (how much can we stand sailing to windward).

 

Here it is, with the usual mix of Wooden Boat wisdom and horseshit.

 

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?144846-Max-Wind-Speed-for-windward-sailing

[DrWatson 375]

Thanks Squid for reposting this as a thread.

 

It's good to see some serious experience coming out here. I've never sailed in anything above 40 knts, but that's more for a lack of opportunity. I'd like to experience some heavier weather - although I can say that comfortably from the comfort of my centrally heated office - I may change my mind in the face of 10m waves and 80 knts. But should that situation arise, It's good to know how other people have dealt with this.

 

Interestingly, the Wooden Boat Forum has picked up on this incident (Raglan Rescue) and our current thread (how much can we stand sailing to windward).

 

Here it is, with the usual mix of Wooden Boat wisdom and horseshit.

 

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?144846-Max-Wind-Speed-for-windward-sailing

 

I started the thread on WBF in much the same vein as here, hoping to see the colour of the wisdom from further a field. Many people have a lot of experience, and all of it is worth consideration.

 

Booboo's experiences are great to learn from - as are the other people who have truly experienced weather that most of us hope to never confront. There's much to learn, and the more you learn ther more you find out there is to learn.

[Megwyn 2]

There's much to learn, and the more you learn the more you find out there is to learn.

 

Nicely said Dr W, and oh so true.