The state of ocean racing

[Guest]

I was going to keep this till after the Noumea race finished, but it's getting away from me and there have been some pretty good posts on our facebook page. SO I'm going to reproduce a few of them here, along with this poll before I bore you all with my less than humble opinions.

 

Steve Alloway easy, don't go if it's on the wind

 

Steve Alloway no carbon boats

 

(before you all go crazy I'm sure some of theese are tongue in cheek)

 

William Calver Ditch all boats who cant make 25 to 30kts boat speed or above lol

 

Cameron Thorpe Funny thing is the Beneteau's are still going despite many "experts" opinions

 

 

Steve Alloway

When the guys who pay for these yachts sit down with the designers and say I want to compete at the sharp end of the trophy list. the designers know they are going to sail the boat fast and hard and stuff will break. the question is how much will it break and can the break be fixed so the yacht can continue competing. this is the 3rd major break for beau geste since 2009, with a truck load of miles under her keel, maybe it's time to throw it a way and get a new one, maybe it's under spec'd, maybe it's under built, maybe you shouldn't take a flat bottomed 80ft maxi on the wind in 50knots at 70%, maybe they should have done a runner. As for the bene comments, maybe surrel is a strong design and it was sailed in the RNZ, well within it's specs for the conditions. I know of other later model benes that have suffered major issues after 2500miles on the wind to Noumea and back. not all bene's are the same, most shouldn't go past rangi light. the 2 benes in this race are last and 2nd last, just on halfway, I would suggest that these yachts are being sailed well within their limits 6 days into a 1000 mile trip. Blizzard are showing heading south

 

Colin wrote: "starlight's hull is fine. its the less than a year old main that fucked out and when that happened parts of the battern car track ripped off. not entirely sure on the details, point loading maybe? but this after a mast refurb by a 'reputable' rigger. they did take the track off and maybe they wound the hellicoils out the other end when they put it back on? . any words from someone at the riggers? someones got to come up with some answers."

[markm 30]

Not that I'm a stirrer squid but don't forget to put up your solution if you think there's a problem.

[Guest]

In time mark, didn't want to be seen hogging the limelight

[Guest]

But here's another thought you just prompted. The local multihull fleet, they like to push hard and a fair percentage of the 8.5's and a few others have ended up upside down.

I understand (please add information here if you have it) that they have at least had discussions around having their own chase boat and their own insurance schemes. Now that to me seems a responsible attitude.

[wheels 543]

I voted for "somethings wrong" because in the case of this latest boat that just ripped apart, (from what I have been told) the builder said it is too light and so sign this piece of paper to show that we said so. So if a boat can then be passed for Cat whatever when the builder has said something is wrong with this, then something needs to be done.

Only problem is, I don't want to see yet more stringent rules and regs and red tape added.

[Guest]

Cameron Thorpe Funny thing is the Beneteau's are still going despite many "experts" opinions

Sort of kidding but those 2 Bennies total sail area was probably less than BG's mainsail alone. Surely that has to help their longevity.

 

Interesting I'm being told I have to 'calculate' everything and pull downs etc won't be considered as conclusive nor will over 1200 years of my one-design on the water actually doing it drama free history, yet those boats that have been heavily 'calculated' are breaking and the old school aren't. Hmmmmm..........

 

Not that I'm a stirrer

cough cough..... bullshit

[Guest]

Not that I'm a stirrer squid but don't forget to put up your solution if you think there's a problem.

 

Do you mean this piece of quality?

 

I was after such sensible answers like....... If a boat is going to break and crews lives be put in danger then they may as well attach cannons to the boats and let them attack each other

[Guest]

Surely part of this issue is the professional vs amateur question.

 

When I was deeply involved in what is now NZ Yachting, many moons ago, I made the extremely unpopular point (one of many of my unpopular positions, actually) that our involvement in the America's Cup was going to introduce a new culture in our sailing wherein winning/results would become the critical dynamic, to the detriment of seamanship and sportsmanship.

 

Part of the reason that my prognostications seemed out of line at the time was that we had seen some very heartening examples of professional yachtsman putting seamanship ahead of glory.

 

A prime example was Ceramco's dismasting in the Indian Ocean and Blake, Stagg, & Co's heroic sail to finish the leg under jury rig.

 

But that was a temporary illusion.

 

I'm not saying that today's pro sailors are not good seamen, quite the opposite - it's simply that the bar (to survival of boat, life and limb) has been raised to levels beyond the capability of average

amateur sailors.

 

We should, in retrospect, have taken the bit between our teeth and divorced professional sailing from corinthian sailing. We had seen the effects of professionals on Olympic sailing wherein it became impossible for anyone other than a full time pro. to compete.

 

But human nature doesn't work like that. We still have amateur sailors who buy boats for all sorts of reasons, and still expect to compete in the fast lane.

 

It's fatuous really.

[Kiteroa 8]

You have to remember that Beau Geste has had a long history of serious structural issues. So it's hardly a reflection on the state of general ocean racing. And as I remember the early round the world races had a pretty high attrition rate also! And that was back in the good old days when everything was sweet as. I also remember a significant number of 1980's - 1990's whitbread boats having bow sections cut out at various stop overs. They were doing half the speed of a V70 and still falling apart! What about the 1990's BOC races, boats upside down keels in the air or gone completely? And other boats going missing all together! I think ocean racing is just situation normal isn't it? If anything, it's safer than it's ever been.

[DrWatson 375]

Beau Geste were still racing and heading into 50 knt? That's how they broke the boat? IF that is the case I'm not sure sailing into 50 knt is a very seaman like decision esp if they had room to leeward and could have hove to.

[Guest]

Beau Geste were still racing and heading into 50 knt? That's how they broke the boat? IF that is the case I'm not sure sailing into 50 knt is a very seaman like decision esp if they had room to leeward and could have hove to.

 

They reckoned that they were sailing the boat to 70% of its potential in that weather, so they had backed it off. If it had of been another boat that didnt have an inherent structural problem then they might have gotten through just fine (but this can only ever be a guess).

[Jon 360]

Did they say they had backed off to 70% or 70% for the conditions ?

To me hoving to in a race boat with a crew of 18 is not even worth concidereing.

But imho 50+ knts becomes survival mode and I wouldn't be pushing a boat at 70% or even maybe 50% in these conditions.

But then again if your being payed to keep a 80fter at the sharp end of the fleet it must be a lot harder to go into survival mode ?

[Guest]

To me hoving to in a race boat with a crew of 18 is not even worth concidereing.

 

Curious as to why???

[Jon 360]

To me hoving to in a race boat with a crew of 18 is not even worth concidereing.

 

Curious as to why???

If the boats not setup to sail into 50 kts with a deep reefed main and or a storm jib then it shouldn't have left the harbour to start with.

Secondly you have the manpower to helm and keep the boat moving, with forward motion you have steerage and options.

Thirdly going backwards in a race boat at 2 to 3 kts has a very negative effect on morel

But don't get me wrong if you are short crewed or all buggered/injured then it is a good tool to have in the box.

[DrWatson 375]

At 50 knts no one else will be trying to win the race, and it turns out that you're far more likely to break the boat and then not finish. Heave-to, and drift to l'ward at the same rate as other competitors. Then, with your crew fully rested, and your boat in good working order, break out the sails again when it moderates and scorch to the finish line with your crew at the top of their game.

 

If you don't finish, you can't finish 1st

 

 

Unless you're about to be smashed to pieces on the lee shore, take a break and save the energy of your crew and the wear and tear on the boat.

[Jon 360]

I like the way you think Doc, but in the real world we hove to for 2 hrs in the RNZ in 40 gusting 50 and the boat that was a mile behind us kept sailing, two hours going 2 to 3 kts backwards and them doing 5kts forward had them gain 15 nm on us. I'll tell you it might be hard to sleep in a boat pounding to windward but it's even harder to sleep when your been kicked like that.

To makeup that ground it's going to take you a day or two doing 1/2 a kt faster just to get back to where you were relatively speaking.

[Guest]

Based on Danaides last post I interpret that competitive spirit is to blame which is quite likely close to the mark?

[Guest]

I am sure they will start building boats much stronger from now on. Especially after the VOR carnage.

 

There must be a compromise somewhere between speed and strength.

 

It is a tricky one because there will always be someone with a light boat the will beat you in 7/10 races and get damaged in the rest. But history tells us that heavy strong boats aren't the best race boats...lion nz is an example.

[Jon 360]

Another contributing factor is clubs canceling races in heavy conditions, which favours and encourages light less seaworthy boats, imho

[Guest]

Another contributing factor is clubs canceling races in heavy conditions, which favours and encourages light less seaworthy boats, imho

 

 

Great comment