The state of ocean racing

[Guest]

Didn't V5 break on the round north island race? They must have fixed it up good.

 

That boat seems to go pretty well for an in shore racer? Even beat a mini maxi

[Bogan 8]

I don't mind when they push the limits in something like the VOR. In that race the organisers can foot the bill.

 

But with carnage in these local races, it has the potential to affect the coastal racing and cruising we all like to do and the cost of doing it (insurance and inspections if nothing else).

 

At the very least, designers need to start thinking about modes of failure. For example it must be possible to include some sort of backstop for compression failures in the deck and bulk heads - something where the boat has to stop sailing, but will remain water tight and afloat. In my opinion, catastophic failure which can lead to instant sinking is not a suitable failure condition for an ocean racing yacht.

[Guest]

From Cameron on the crew.org facebook page.

 

"As for the bene comments, maybe surrel is a strong design and it was sailed in the RNZ, well within it's specs for the conditions. I know of other later model benes that have suffered major issues after 2500miles on the wind to Noumea and back. not all bene's are the same, most shouldn't go past rangi light."

 

What a crock of crap! Some Bene's shouldn't go past Rangi light ??? In that case half of the boats built in NZ shouldn't be let out of a bath tub! I get annoyed at comments bashing "import" boats that are unfair. For sure Beneteau's have their faults... but no more so than the vast majority of NZ built boats. I'd love there to be more "kiwi" boats but the imports do offer great value in some cases. For all boats you need to bear in mind what they are designed to do and the current conditions and then sail accordingly. I'd say the First 47.7 (Surreal) is designed for extended coastal but if using for offshore or the likes of RNZ there may be times when you need to back off abit earlier. On the upside if a fantastic rooy interior for cruising...

[Guest]

Based on Danaides last post I interpret that competitive spirit is to blame which is quite likely close to the mark?

 

 

Further evidence in support of that theory, the Aussie boat lost in the Flinder's Is race, and the US boat lost at the Farallones very recently. Both involving loss of lives. Both a simple case of cutting the corner to try and win a race.

[Rats 28]

Agree Stephen C

Beneteaus caught a bad rap many years ago when the resin manufacurer changed the resin spec without informing the friggin builder lotsa boats came out with blisters which beneteau fixed at their cost they later sued said resin producer and as I recall they won. They are still paying the price, personally I would not have a problem going offshore in many of them.

Now there are cruising Beneteaus and then the slightly more upmarket ones.

I recall delivering one from Antigua to Ft Lauderdale and deciding then and there that I would never get a boat with the galley along one side like this particular one had. It really was set up for the Med cruising from bay to bay. I would go the upmarket ones.

On topic now:

There are race boats that break for a variety of reasons often human stupidity is up there. I have been on board one (80 ft) where one of the trimmers forgot to change hydraulic settings and in the next tack we pulled the top 8 feet of the rig down.

I feel for designers that have wealthy owners come and say I want a boat and I want it to win. How are you best to achieve that...key to the equation is weight or the reduction of it. lets face it many of the most sucessful shapes and foil sections have already been explored if you don't believe me take a tour of the model room at the New York Yacht Club and you will be amazed at that shapes and exploration that have gone before us. In the words of Winston Churchill those who do not study their history are destined to repeat it!

We forget that Beau G was being pushed hard- now I know that the boys had backed off some but fer christs sake the boat has been pushed hard for 50 + thousand miles! Lets put that in some sort of perspective- when was the last time you saw a formula one car put those sort of miles up without a complete rebuild?

I was recently involved in the build of an open 60 style cruising boat and one of the critical design decisions addressed was core material in the high slam areas, another is the trade off of a flat plane inducing forefoot (Foward of the keel) vs the slower v section that gives a softer ride that is kinder on the crew and the boat. There is no simple answer to the questions posed because race boats have too many variables themselves -short of a one design but you can see the VOR results and the same old design issues present themselves.

Sponsors and wealthy owners want boats that win. In order to do that they must be light and scary. If you don't build it then the next guy behind you will, let the arms race begin....

Advertisers and the general public are not interested in boats that go "Safe and Slow"

Remember that BG got to safety because of seamanship and that my friends is the key factor.

Thats my ten cents

[Guest]

Sorry Rats I didnt make it that clear, the comment was from Cameron, I just copied and pasted it.

[Rats 28]

Well if a few benes shouldn't go past rangi light that leaves a truckload of other boats here in NZ that shouldn't get out past north head and half the reason is the idjets trying to drive them.

[Guest]

Didn't V5 break on the round north island race? They must have fixed it up good.

 

That boat seems to go pretty well for an in shore racer? Even beat a mini maxi

 

 

Thanks

[Guest]

Well if a few benes shouldn't go past rangi light that leaves a truckload of other boats here in NZ that shouldn't get out past north head and half the reason is the idjets trying to drive them.

 

That sums up the one bene that I have sailed on. One time we broke the outhaul in 30 knots and the spinnaker halyard in 15...then another we tore the main in 25 and both times it was with a pro (is that the problem ). The boat had no maintanice work done to it and it was falling apart because of it, but its not the companys or the designs fault.

[Guest]

There's nothing wrong, shut up and stop whining

Something's wrong and better to address it now before an unpleasant solution is forced on us

Just a bump in the curve it will sort itself out through "market forces"

 

Interesting choices

 

In some ways we may be led into a false sense of security with some manufactures clames.

If you look at the open class boats, 950,40,60, you would be safe to say that yes they are truly Cat 0 structured boats.

Then you work backwards from there.

[Guest]

From Cameron on the crew.org facebook page.

 

 

What a crock of crap!

 

how many bene's could get cat 0?

 

Cameron, you have your opinions based on your experience and I have mine based on mine to suggest that my comments are a crock of crap tells me you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to boats built for a price v boats built for a purpose. Honda v Cherry or Great Wall. To compare yachts designed and built in NZ for local conditions v European production boats built for a price, primarily for the charter market, also suggests you want to compare apples with oranges, both fruit, yet offer different flavours.

 

Without getting into a long list of details of how some euro boats have been upgraded to meet local conditions, may I suggest you take a closer look at the fixtures, fittings and quality of the respective packages v $$.

 

example a 14mm bolt used for the goose-neck fitting will do the job fine until you need to put a reef in, when a 16mm should of used. On another brand, mainsheet and jib blocks exploding under pressure in 15knots of breeze, the owner replaced all the blocks with the next size up.

 

While I agree with most of your comments about lots of issues and respect your achievements with SSANZ and you outstanding results with Hard Labour both inshore and coastal. Sometimes I feel your head is so far up your ass you can't see the wood for the trees

[Guest]

All these 'Rambo Racers' of the sailing world do is create a climate of anxiety and fear in the general public that offshore sailing, whether it be for pleasure or racing - is a "dangerous" activity - and that yet more red tape and restrictions should be imposed - mostly in the form of "safety items". The best safety item you can have is a quality design, quality build, and a quality sailor/s. Actually, design and build are of more importance than the quality of sailor, because a sailor should be worn out way before his boat - the boat should always be able to take much more of a beating than sailor - clearly this is no longer the case in some instances.

[Guest]

opps, could happen to kiwi boats too

 

Iolanthe 2 ZMF964127 44S 168 46E

 

Vessel has a broken boom, Just using the Head sail alone and still proceeding to Noumea.

 

Steinlager 2

 

Doing well in Auckland-Noumea Race, 260 miles to go, as they have no mainsail...

[Murky 1]

"As the yachts that had pulled out returned to port, controversy broke out anew over whether the Royal Akarana Yacht Club should have continued with the race knowing it was sending the fleet into a storm. As long as ocean racing continues, such debate will occur after every storm-swept race."

- from Endless Summer, the Penny Whiting story, written by Rebecca Hayter

 

The race being referred to was the 1966 Auckland-Suva. At the time I was not even a twinkle in my father's eye but from the reports it seems like one sinking (with Navy and Air Force assisting with multiple searches) one fire, a couple of dismastings and several withdrawals with leaks, broken rudders, rig damage and other issues.

 

So when are we saying "the rot" set in?

 

Just another perspective...no doubt people on this site who were out there in that race and will set me straight.

[Guest]

The Noumea issues or VOR don't translate into a "global ocean racing meltdown".

 

I'd rate the safety of sailing my family to Noumea higher than driving them from one end of the country to the other.

 

To put things into perspective, compare the stats here with ocean racing injuries / fatalities:

 

http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Road-Toll/

 

In comparison it's pretty good!

[markm 30]

Thank you Murky

[TimB 7]

dainade said way back in the thread "Another contributing factor is clubs canceling races in heavy conditions, which favours and encourages light less seaworthy boats, imho"

I agree wholeheatedly and add (just as important IMHO)

It has produced over time, a generation of sailors who don't know what to do when it gets tough and don't know how to handle rough conditions.

 

Unfortunately our PC world has evolved so that the club officials might get charged with negligence when something goes wrong big time despite dicslaimers.

 

Just my 10c worth.

 

TimB

[Guest]

When I competed in the last Noumea race, similar conditions, there were alot of issues and similar issues , dropped rigs , torn mains ( batten car issues ) broken ribs , at one sched there were only about 4 boats heading north with the rest of the fleet seeking shelter in the Northland ( a great call as you were able to get west after the weather past )

 

Before setting off I was speaking with a mate who had 10s of thousands of miles under his belt, he did mention that leaving early June was interesting as this is generally when we get these depressed lows. Is this the issue? 2 races in a row with this weather???

 

In regards to BG , a similar design to Limit that also competed in the last race (70fet vs 80 feet ) that saw similar conditions and were at one stage sailing under storm job alone ( I think ) and contemplating slowing the boat down if I remember rightly, came through the race unscathed ? I would be ivery nterested in Rodney Keenan's comments as he was on both vessels and am sure with his experience and expertise was well in control.

 

Now I for one am all for Ocean racing and it is not for the faint hearted and should be a challenge but should the dates for this particular race be looked at?

 

There was once a time where people would say " You will break before the boat does " and as Sir Peter said, "You cant call home for Mum!

[Guest]

Back in the 70's they used to start much earlier,early May

[splashprincess 17]

May be June is not a good month for ocean racing - the big storm where boats and lives were lost on their cruise/delivery to the islands was Queens Birthday weekend 1994.