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So leaving out the full on race situations, lets look at this for Cruising only and in relation to Cat1 requirments. Lets say we don't have to legally comply with Cat1.

Reasons why would be nice but not essential, but reasons why not would be really good to hear.

What equipment would people carry and not carry?

What saftey systems would people use or not bother with?

Anything else?

Where are we going? The Islands?

Liferaft, EPIRB, flares, SSB, sea anchor, storm jib + trisail, go see the quack about what to take in a first aid kit, several back up GPSs, probably minimum, and a damn good check of the boat before I left. Tell me what I have forgotten, having never had cat 1 and never made the trip before.

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There is no need for regulations for individual cruising yachts WITHOUT children on board.If you carry an EPIRB and it works,you get rescued.If not,you have opted out of taxpayer funded rescue.I think the rescue part usually costs lots less than the search part.So cut out the search part.I think a major problem has been the weepy relatives begging the politicians to search.They need to privatise the search part and have user pays for NZ yachts.I dont think this policy would be as hard as it looks.How hard is it to have more than one EPIRB and have them properly registered and professionaly maintained?

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Just because you have an EPIRB and it alerts instantly exactly where you are, that does not mean instant rescue. So how do you keep your boat afloat, or a sick person alive, or wait out a storm till you can lifted off. It is a little simplistic thinking that because you have an EPIRB, you are sweet. And just because you have an EPIRB, it may not for some reason, get activated. Like the fellow just recently that went missing off the East Cape and his boat turns up in the Chatams. Not saying anything would have changed in his situation. Just saying that an EPIRB may not always be able to be activated.

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Wheels,your example is a perfect example why the taxpayer should not search.You say he had an epirb?Could the reason that it was not activated be because he was DEAD?.

Ok,give me some scenarios where a person is alive but cannot activate their epirb.(probably all your scenarios are going to involve singlehanders).

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Wheels, almost everybody works on and thinks of worst case scenarios, yes they happen but not on the scale that worrying folk seem to think they do. just read the pirate and gun themes on the US. sites and compare them to the number of boats out there and the percentage of actual events. Minuscule. Modern communications have a lot to answer for, It is as previously mentioned the shore bound ones who most often press for answers, I want to know and I want to know "NOW". This comes back to the safety industry, there is a coastguard advert saying "how are we going to find you if you don't tell us where you are going" meaning don't worry we will be there to pick up the pieces when you crap out, this gives a false sense of security and doesn't always work when put to the test. Most yachtys come and go year round without incident.

People will always drown, you can't legislate for fools who will go out poorly prepared or when they shouldn't as they generally either don't care, don't know the rules or ignore any they might know whenever it suits and don't seem to give a sh*t anyway.

Once again it is the many who are being legislated against to save a minority who can't and shouldn't be saved from themselves.

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25 years ago a yacht set off for Fiji, It had everything required for cat 1 and was well fitted out, and with 3 crew, the skipper had been a deck officer back in the 1950's they took 6 weeks and ended up in Tonga rather than Fiji. I never managed to find out quite where they spent those all of those six weeks but the primary problem was a massive short that stuffed the batteries. No engine start, no power for SSB etc.etc. On the 5th week the skipper stopped trusting his noon sights and reverted to an RDF and managed to pick up the Fiji aerial beacon, unfortunately he managed to sail on the reciprocal course which was how he ended up in Tonga. Many many errors and unforeseen circumstances but they arrived safely and continued on to spend the next 25 years circumnavigating. His wife's parents started asking for a search after about the 4th week. No search was started because the possible area was huge. Like most late arrivals they do arrive eventually, we just have to be patient and realistic and nor panic.

It was a ferro boat too.

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I am probably not making my personal thoughts clear. i am not for Cat 1 either. I wish I could just head off to some place when ever the feeling fancied me also. What i am trying say is that most of us would have our boats to or darn close to Cat1 anyway. It just seems that many have this idea that Cat 1 is unreachable, when in reality, they most likely are at that level already, or can make that level with not a lot extra work.

Plus I also would have to say, that if you feel Cat 1 is hard work from the red tape point of view, you ain't seen nothing yet with the requirments of many countries now. Especially if you are heading to any US waters or close US Allies and that includes Oz.

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Plus I also would have to say, that if you feel Cat 1 is hard work from the red tape point of view, you ain't seen nothing yet with the requirments of many countries now. Especially if you are heading to any US waters or close US Allies and that includes Oz.

 

I'm sure you're right, and a pox on them as well!!

 

Being able to pack up yer yot and sail away for 3 years is a brilliant adventure, and if my kids are not going to be able to do this due to governmental busybodies, I will be very sad for them as the world will be a poorer place. I learned so much and did so much that I never believed I could do, just because I had to. It was bloody great adventure, and I would do it all again in a heartbeat, if someone would pay the mortgage and child support.... :cry: :cry: :cry:

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I see the Jester challenge transatlantic race has NO safety requirements. Bet very few have problems due to lack of "safety" gear. Myself I probably have most of the cat 1 stuff but I would rather it was my choice than some govt reg.

 

MSA is apparently trying to make wearing of lifejackets compulsary after an enquiry into recent drownings at Tekapo

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Wheels,you seem like a guy who knows everyone in your neck of the woods.I bet you know who your local cat1 inspectors are.How about asking them for a FREE preliminary inspection of your boat.See what they come up with and tell us.Obviously if they are in it for the money the answer will be no.No harm in asking?

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Yep ahead of you on that one already. That is why I am a little more at ease about it now. I did not get an official inspection, so it was not thorough. If I did, I would expect to pay, it would only be fair. The reason why I did this was a few (3 or 4) years back when the stability information was suggested as being part of the requirements, I thought how the hell does anyone come up with that information for a boat like mine. People also told me I woudl most likely never get a FC hull through Cat1. So I approached the local inspector, who just happens to also be one of the guys that helped write up the rules in the beginning.

Now this is where I do feel the "system" could fall down some what. Much of the inpsection comes down to the inspector themselvs. So you could have one experienced guy that understands and is a lot more Grey with decisions in some areas and a tuff nosed one that is hard and fast. There certainly needs to be a "standard" that I believe is lacking. But then again, a "standard" may make it harder for my boat to pass. So I don't know the real answer to that one. Apart from the standard being kept "flexible". One important point that was made to me, was that during the inspection, the Inspector is also "reading" the replies of the Skipper and crew and will get a feel for there competency. So if it shows they are very experienced, the boat is not picked over with such a fine toothed comb. Unexperienced will mean they get tougher on the boats standard. I am not sure if that is a good situation either. Once again, it is coming back to someones judgment, but I can also see a a benifit in that if the Inspector is not hardnosed. So I don't know.

 

Another comment I see many times in these discussions is that it is Gvt lead Beuracracy that is stuffing all our freedom up here. But actually, the issue stems from the fact that when ever an accident ahas occured, someone has moaned and complained and called for blood and wants to sue and so on, that then we see these rules and laws come in. A boat's rudder falls of, some boat yard manager gets charged with manslaughter. Soem boat turns turtle, a designer gets done. Someone runs into rocks, next thing the survivors start blaming all sorts of others. The idea that "I should be able to set off with no restrictions and if somethign goes wrong, it's my fault, don't come looking for me, unless I say so with my EPIRB" is all very well if that is what everyone did.

Could the reason that it was not activated be because he was DEAD?.

Arrrr, yes. There have been many stories of boats going down taking water or depth release/activated EPIRB's with them, never activating. Just like the odd instance of Liferafts not deploying.

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25 years ago a yacht set off for Fiji, It had everything required for cat 1 and was well fitted out, and with 3 crew, the skipper had been a deck officer back in the 1950's they took 6 weeks and ended up in Tonga rather than Fiji. I never managed to find out quite where they spent those all of those six weeks but the primary problem was a massive short that stuffed the batteries. No engine start, no power for SSB etc.etc. On the 5th week the skipper stopped trusting his noon sights and reverted to an RDF and managed to pick up the Fiji aerial beacon, unfortunately he managed to sail on the reciprocal course which was how he ended up in Tonga. Many many errors and unforeseen circumstances but they arrived safely and continued on to spend the next 25 years circumnavigating. His wife's parents started asking for a search after about the 4th week. No search was started because the possible area was huge. Like most late arrivals they do arrive eventually, we just have to be patient and realistic and nor panic.

It was a ferro boat too.

 

In my first trip across the English channel in my own boat I missed FRANCE. Visibility was only around 5 miles, and the tidal currents were strong, but I had an RYA offshore yachtmaster, had done it before and was supremely confident in my navigational skills. (All dead reckoning, Log and compass only). We left from Gosport in the Solent aimimg for Cherbourg and ened up in St Peter's Port, Channel Islands. I think about 60 miles west to the best of my knowledge. I couldn't figure it out. I had done something wrong but what?? It came to me 6 months later when the same sort of thing happened but in good vis,

We had a night time snack of spagetti from a can. The can went in the rubbish bag which hung on the inside bulkhead just behind the through bulkhead compass... Swung the compass 20 degrees... :oops: :oops: :oops:

 

Cat 1 would have made fark all difference.

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I missed NZ the same way, a crew member was smuggling a stereo in a quarter berth, the magnet in the speaker was enough to send us 20 deg off, missed it coz it only happpened as we tacked on the last evening.

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Nice to know I am not the only one. :D

 

I remember the day when you came back from Fiji with stereos because they were so damn expensive in NZ. Long time ago Squid!

 

At the time I had new girlfreind on our first overnight passage, and she looked at me sideways for quite a long time after that.

I ended up sailing up to a Fishing boat and asking them on VHF "where the fark are we'. I just about fell over when he said 10 miles NE of St Peter's Port!!!!

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Abel Tasman had the same problem. A crew member was hiding a Gettoblaster in his locker, which just happened to be under the Compass and Cpt Abel completely missed Australia. :wink:

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Abel Tasman had the same problem. A crew member was hiding a Gettoblaster in his locker, which just happened to be under the Compass and Cpt Abel completely missed Australia. :wink:

 

Didn't miss much....

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From the same website

 

73. How do you feel about Eric Hiscock’s comment that “we (cruisers) have no right when in trouble to call on others”?

 

We are extremely pragmatic and practical about these decisions.

 

1. I believe most experienced cruisers agree on the key point; which is that it remains critical that we maintain the cruising ethic of self reliance and that we communicate that ethic to newcomers. In this aspect, I sympathize with the point that Eric was trying to make. Your mindset when you go offshore needs to be that you will help yourself.

 

I say this not for purist reasons but pragmatic reasons. First, in fact, even if you try to call for help, you may well get none (in time). And second, if large numbers of people go to sea expecting to use the shore safety net, then the shore safety net will start regulating and demanding more and more from us. That will change cruising forever and IMHO for the worse. And third, if the reason you go cruising is in even small part to ‘change your life’ or ‘get away’ or ‘look for adventure & challenge’, or ‘have greater freedom and responsibility than ashore’ or anything along those lines, then you are cheating yourself in a very practical sense if you don’t adapt the seaman’s self reliance and hang onto the shore safety net. You will have given up a lot (all the shore conveniences) but not embraced the freedom & responsibility & challenge.

 

In Eric's day, when you went offshore you left the safety net behind, period, full stop. You had to be an independent self-reliant seaman. And it was essential that 'old salts' make sure new salts really knew and understood that fact of life offshore right down to the bottom of their sea boots. Today there is more of a choice to be made. Today you can choose to go offshore and keep some of the shore safety net. You can for instance choose to keep 24x7 access to doctors & technical verbal help (by sat phone), and in some parts of the world you can choose to keep access to rescue services. BUT . . . when making these choices you do have to (1) understand the dangers of the safety net. They can seduce you into loosing focus and abandoning ship long before you really need to, (2) realize that you may have access to a small part of the safety net but you do not have it all and you may well get no help when you call. And (3) realize by keeping the shore link you may be giving up part of what you were looking for when you dreamed of going cruising (‘getting away from it all’).

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