Guest Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 A quiet evening with wind at 5kts odd max, boat speed 1 maybe 2 ish max. A similar sort of yacht to us seen about 75mts to windward going rather well. Damn the breeze but that's yacht racing, even though the wind looked pretty even everywhere. Boat rolls over us. A minute or 2 later a strong smell of exhaust fumes. Look hard to weather and only that yacht to be seen, still tickling along easy twice our speed. No other boat of any sort to be seen. Us ticking along at 0.feck all knots on a gulf looking like glass. Boat coming up behind us. Boat coming up behind us rather fast ?????? Is that a noticeable wake we can see????? Boat suddenly goes high (away from another boat of the same class) and then suddenly slows and assumes fleet speed about 50-60mts off our aft 1/4. This boat was exceeding wind speed easily and I can assure you that class will never do that, even on the best day. Can't say 100% but we are willing to put serious coin on the fact there was diesel being burnt in the 1st case, 99% sure it was is the 2nd case. Both boats speeds were just so out of whack with the fleets speed and our noses ain't broke. Those incidents were in 2009. If we could have identified the boats accurately we would have both protested and gone verbal at the skipper/s. We will, do and have pushed rules into places many didn't think they exist. We have argued in weird and wonderful ways in Protest rooms and won most of them. But we will knot break a rule on purpose or cheat, that is for small penised people with no self respect or moral fortitude. We do shift our liferaft from side to side but that is mainly due to sailing a tip truck and everything quickly gravitates to the leeward side. So we move the raft, and the raft only, to make sure that if we do have to use it we can get to it fast. We are still discussing, 2 years later, if that actually makes a speed difference so if it does it's that small you can't see it. Unsportsmanlike activities are common. As is no-one protesting much these days so it's little wonder people are pushing too far. Link to post Share on other sites
Murky 1 Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 The Time to Burn and Flinders Islet (ASM Shockwave/PwC) accident reports were an eye-opener for me about the possibility of liferafts becoming buried in other gear downstairs at the very time they were needed. On a different tack, the 88s have a class rule which prohibits (while racing): Stowage of equipment or gear other than sails on the cabin sole over the keel. Of course that still leaves room for interpretation on where it should be stowed. But it is a start. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Rocket Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 Talking boats not rafts By that I mean leaners. And I am talking upwind... Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Rocket Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 Shifting it from side to side is illegal unless you have a declared water ballast thing going on. I have no problems with filling water tanks on a passage race expecting a beat and then turning the tap on if it turns into a run. But you don't get to fill them up again. I really worry about the run the engine game - surely people would protest - I would confront anyone who did that (and protest) - motor racing is a different sport... Link to post Share on other sites
B00B00 310 Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 I would have thought 'Dead Weight' is classed as something that is just there to add weight/stability and has no other use, other items such as sails and crew gear should allways be stacked in the 'dry' bunks on the high side.......! Seriously thou, I wouldnt class moving sails and gear around downstairs as cheating, sure if people were taking something on a boat that is only there for stacking then thats marginal at best, but legitimate sailing gear, i have no problem with. Water balast is a grey area, my understanding is that you can fill any tank(s) before the start and empty a tank (drink it all or have lots of showers....) but not transfer or take on water without declaring it as water balast. If you are going to declare any water balast you are better to have the system pretty well sorted. I personally have never witnessed any major cases of cheating that I can remember, I think our sport is pretty clean in general. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 28, 2010 Share Posted May 28, 2010 I would have thought 'Dead Weight' is classed as something that is just there to add weight/stability and has no other use, other items such as sails and crew gear should allways be stacked in the 'dry' bunks on the high side.......! Seriously thou, I wouldnt class moving sails and gear around downstairs as cheating, sure if people were taking something on a boat that is only there for stacking then thats marginal at best, but legitimate sailing gear, i have no problem with. Totally agree and are of the mindset the time taken for a crew to shift sails from one side to the other would probably negate any gain anyway, unless you have lots of heavy sails. Booboo would have more idea but I'd be thinking the average Gulf racer just doesn't carry sails weighing in the 100's of kg so what a lot of what people do is more a mind gain than a real speed gain. As an aside and out of interest, what would say a set of Volvo sails weigh? Be up there a bit I'd think. Water ballast must be declared I would think. Potable water would be slightly different and I'd say that if you set up a system to transfer that from side to side while racing you have changed from that from being potable to actually being ballast, in which case I suppose you have to declear it. Don't know for sure so guessing a bit there. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 28, 2010 Share Posted May 28, 2010 "Thomas I Punkt" german admirals cup boat, '80s i think, one of a series. Was found to have installed pipes in the floors which enabled water tanks to be transferred from one side to another prior to each tack. chucked out, think both owner (on board) and crew (professionals) were banned for several years. Link to post Share on other sites
Murky 1 Posted May 28, 2010 Share Posted May 28, 2010 Think a Kiwi was the whistleblower in that case too, at a pretty big personal cost. Which says something. I had a somewhat different recollection of what they were doing with the water...but it was the 80s. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 28, 2010 Share Posted May 28, 2010 you 're probably right, I only really remember the boat name, and what i thought, when I was a kid, was a pretty cool looking boat. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 I would have thought 'Dead Weight' is classed as something that is just there to add weight/stability and has no other use, other items such as sails and crew gear should allways be stacked in the 'dry' bunks on the high side.......! Seriously thou, I wouldnt class moving sails and gear around downstairs as cheating, sure if people were taking something on a boat that is only there for stacking then thats marginal at best, but legitimate sailing gear, i have no problem with. Water balast is a grey area, my understanding is that you can fill any tank(s) before the start and empty a tank (drink it all or have lots of showers....) but not transfer or take on water without declaring it as water balast. If you are going to declare any water balast you are better to have the system pretty well sorted. I personally have never witnessed any major cases of cheating that I can remember, I think our sport is pretty clean in general. Couldn't agree more BooBoo I have encountered some people that classify shifting warp, sails & gear bags around downstairs as cheating....... But surely doing this is just common sense??? Who would intentionally leave weight to leeward upwind?? Link to post Share on other sites
wal 27 Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 Think a Kiwi was the whistleblower in that case too, at a pretty big personal cost. Which says something. I had a somewhat different recollection of what they were doing with the water...but it was the 80s. Same owner used to "watch' his son out opti sailing with a jacket with one red and one green sleeve. Scratch your head with 1 hand = go left or go right He was a winner that boy.... oh and that was our mate Big Balls on the IPunkt Haven't seen him for a few years Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dry Reach Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 bending the rules happens all the time. There was a certain batch of NZ built Laser that had a rather interesting "layup" that did nt represent the manufacturers Spec. Peter lester? had a Soling that had the same problem until Tom Dodson protested him. Many dingy sailors have boats that have a large amount of lead concealed to bring them up to weight only to remove it during regatta's. (until mid regatta random tests came in) Keelboat sailors are the worst. Excepting good well governed class's like the Y88 (in Nat champs)..., some owners will manipulate weight, crew numbers, sail sizes... do try and get an advantage. And the motoring at night "cheating" is the worst crime of all. But hey according to DC we Kiwis are the worst. But some say we are innovative? What With... Fibre glass 12 Metres Bow sprits Twin keels Ketchs (maxi's) NZL 1 (100 ft 'r) Innovation does develop great tecnology but some push it to farr! Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 Bending the rules=weasel words. Cheating is cheating. Somebody caught removing corrector weights should not only be out of the regatta but out of the sport. Link to post Share on other sites
smithy09 50 Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 bending the rules happens all the time. There was a certain batch of NZ built Laser that had a rather interesting "layup" that did nt represent the manufacturers Spec. The Rumour I know was one Laser. Back in the Seventies when they were built in Auckland at Performance sailcraft. Light in the ends... Sailed against the guy who supposedly did it. Never proven in my eyes and was not any faster than the rest of us.... How about acid etching the bottom sections?? More recnt by some well known AC names.. Again, just rumours... Link to post Share on other sites
Clipper 343 Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 What With... Fibre glass 12 Metres Bow sprits Twin keels Ketchs (maxi's) NZL 1 (100 ft 'r) Innovation does develop great tecnology but some push it to farr! What is wrong with any of those, in a cheating sense? i admit the KZ1 debarcle wasn't a great reflection on us, but the rest are clever, and a long way from cheating. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 "Thomas I Punkt" german admirals cup boat, '80s i think, one of a series. Was found to have installed pipes in the floors which enabled water tanks to be transferred from one side to another prior to each tack. chucked out, think both owner (on board) and crew (professionals) were banned for several years. A Fastnet from memory, and in fact they used 20ltr containers tied to the rail, and cut them up at the end of the race. This is full on cheating, and yes they were banned for years. I have once found someone cheating, it was when one of my own boats was getting a refit, and our crew jumped aboard an Elliot 40 (which is still being campained under a different name) with and idiot owner to do the coastal. Long story short, light race midnight off Tootsish and he decides he should charge the batteries. After 5 min we seemed to be going well all of a sudden, we asked 2- 3 times if it was in gear, then discvered it was, just 800 or 1000 revs. I had to prize the hands of a firey Irishman who shall remain nameless, from the throat of the boat owner. We walked off the boat in Russell and never spoke again. Cheating w^&#$@r has been out of yachting for years. Most non complyance in NZ is pushing the boundrys in Class rules, and really that is up to the class to police, the better they do it the stronger the class because the more level the performance. Link to post Share on other sites
SloopJohnB 323 Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 Twin keels Innovation does develop great tecnology but some push it to farr! This was tested on a model yacht up a creek in Annapolis. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dry Reach Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 What With... Fibre glass 12 Metres Bow sprits Twin keels Ketchs (maxi's) NZL 1 (100 ft 'r) Innovation does develop great tecnology but some push it to farr! What is wrong with any of those, in a cheating sense? i admit the KZ1 debarcle wasn't a great reflection on us, but the rest are clever, and a long way from cheating. Nothing wrong with them from our perspective. but from the oppositions perspective... DC and a few other teams hated our GRP 12's in a alloy 12 regatta Chris LAw hated our Ketches in a "Sloop" dominated around the world race. Paul Cayard protested our Prod and hated the way we used it. We think we are innovative but if these things happened against us what would we say. Would we say... Innovative?, bending the rules? or Cheats. remember when we called DC a cheat for having multiple rating Certificates for 3 different mode setups for Star and stripes? Ands when Slur Michael Flay cried "protest" when DC turned up in a CAT to race a 100' DOG. Or when DC swapped AC boats prior to taking a pasting from Sir Russell in NZL32. Cheating (not rule bending ) is a big part of our sport. But... Cheating is quite hard to define in our complex sport. Except in True and strict one design. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dry Reach Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 bending the rules happens all the time. There was a certain batch of NZ built Laser that had a rather interesting "layup" that did nt represent the manufacturers Spec. The Rumour I know was one Laser. Back in the Seventies when they were built in Auckland at Performance sailcraft. Light in the ends... Sailed against the guy who supposedly did it. Never proven in my eyes and was not any faster than the rest of us.... How about acid etching the bottom sections?? More recnt by some well known AC names.. Again, just rumours... I have seen 3 boats with hull sections devoid of Chopped Strand and "layed Up" with some nice cloth lay ups. These boats were very stiff, did not twist or barrel roll and are still in great condition today. Also there was a lot of "owner" involvement when the mast tube was "poo'd (bogged) into place with some very interesting rakes, Nice "non random alignment", and raised bases... Apparently Th Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 bending the rules happens all the time. There was a certain batch of NZ built Laser that had a rather interesting "layup" that did nt represent the manufacturers Spec. Also there was a lot of "owner" involvement when the mast tube was "poo'd (bogged) into place with some very interesting rakes, Nice "non random alignment", and raised bases... Apparently yes these were the 1367XX boats built circa 1991 at performance sailcraft on the concourse henderson. one of them won the 96 olympic trials, another was second. a third boat won multiple national championships, and there were others. these guys are now pro sailors. the boats were known by their builders surname, and I think he is a contributor to this site under the same surname (I am making an assumption here but it would be one large coincidence if I was wrong...) Would love to hear it from the horses mouth all these years later Crocket (if you are the same boatbuilder??) My apologies if you're someone unrelated... At the time there was even speculation about kevlar in the bow layup...but that was speculation. Th Link to post Share on other sites
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