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Anchors and warp


Vivaldi

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2000kg with a 15lber Royal, got it stuck in the rocks again?

 

I spoke to Steve Manson and that was the numbers they were getting during their stress testing.

 

I was quite impressed but he did say that was in "ideal" conditions.

 

I agree that it's all in the chain. Never been a fan of plow anchors though

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my old tackle was way undersized

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Ohh myyyy!!! What a damning admission to make on a public forum. :twisted: Followed by this gem ...

 

it was dam reassuring to know that i had top of the range, and oversized tackle on the bottom

 

:wtf:

 

:) haha, fair call - i asked for that

bloody comedians everywhere these days

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Note that your 20m of chain probably outweighs the the anchor in most of these systems. Hand hauling 20m of chain and a 25lb anchor up in greater than 20m depth is thirsty work.

 

I'm interested in is how to reduce sailing around on the anchor. I find it useful to have some of the chain still off the bottom, so that the chain has to drag around for the boat to move. And a boom tent halps stabilise the boat as well (more windage aft).

 

Unless the anchorage is quite deep I tend to let out all my chain and enough warp for the chain to sit on the bottom, and then haul up about 2m. This stops the boat sailing around in the light puffs. But even with 20m of chain and a 5 to 1 ratio means max depth for this is 5m at high tide.

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I'd be using a 25lber, 20 of 7mm chain and the same rope. It'll work far better, hold more and weigh 10% less.

 

 

Thanks KM I'll do that - I have one more question though - on my spare anchor and warp the rope is spliced to the chain - it makes a nice neat join and comes over the fairlead nicely but I was wondering about the chain gradually chaffing through the rope. What are your thoughts on this.

And where can I get a good deal on a 25 pound Manson Supreme? :)

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Its probably overkill but I put 100mm of spare 8mm casing over each of the 3 strands where it looped around the first link of the chain then spliced it back in as per a standard rope to chain splice. I figured the would normally be a thimble to a shackle in that place to defer any chafe so while I was in there why knot.

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Considering Motorbike seemed to spend quite a bit of the time on the weekend on a lee shore at Sullivans( Mahurangi) in a bucketing chop and solid 20, I'd say his system works.

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There are 3 big things that cause most issues with anchoring systems -

1, 'My mate said'. Sorry dude but as nicer bloke as your mate maybe the fact he was once in the navy and/or can spell boat doesn't mean he knows anything. 'My Mate' costs boaters LOTs of money for no good reason.

 

2, Marketing. Some of the best in quality and price gear available often has sh*t marketing so never gets on many radars. Some of the shittest gear is behind good marketing and does have it's head sticking up. Buy sh*t is fine by you'll just have to replace it sooner, which ends up costing you more money. The numbers of supposed experts making basic fundamental kindergarten like mistakes and bad calls in the game at the moment is large, surprisingly so. The punters are paying those people.

 

3, The DOTS. Many have no technique and blame the gear/system for dragging issues. The number of times we have given boaters a huge performance gain just by a 5min chat over the phone is large.

 

DOTS = Dick On The Stick.

 

Bogan - You don't know sailing at anchor until you have 930, talk about a mad woman on P when at anchor :). 2 ways you can try, one is a killet (anchor buddy), they work a bit like your comment about keeping a bit of chain off the floor but just throw more concentrated weight into that key just off the bottom spot. The 2nd and what I ended up doing after a lot of pissing around with many ideas is hang a small drogue off your bow. WTF? I hear. A drogue, a bucket will do, hanging about 700-1000mm below the surface about mt off your bow may do the trick, it did for me. I have a bit of rope with a shackle and slide it 1mt down my anchor rode. Fiddle with that and see how you go.

 

C29 - I'd say Smart Marine at the moment. Most places do them but for some weird reason Burnsco were but have now stopped and Smart Marine has started doing them for feck all. We do them but are too busy to piss around doing shite for nothing. A Supreme is a Supreme so just find the cheapest price. I'd say you'll be paying around 320 all up. Actually that is interesting they seem to have changed a little. In that case it may pay to just go to your closest place as if they are only a couple of $$$ different it may save you fuel driving further. People may suggest a Rocna but that's a why would ya, the Supreme is better in most if knot all ways and it's cheaper. NOTE: Shop quickly, like in the next few days........ trust me as that may save you a few $$'s ;) The chain, make sure you know what you are getting. While all the 7mm (all sizes) look the same, the strength differences in the NZ 7mm market range from over 750kg down to as low as 375kg, that's talking Working load limits. So a shitty one will be changing shape as a good one is still only waking up and having breakfast. The price range is ruffly 8.50 to 9.99 mt so the difference in bucks is nothing compared to the difference in performance.

 

With a direct R2C splice (rope direct to chain) if it's done properly there is no chafe issue, none what so ever. I know this as we have made literally 1000's of them and respliced similar over the years. But the key is 'done properly' and to be honest there are some out there charging people to do them very poorly. Strength wise, again done properly there is no more lose than there is with a thimble spliced in. NOTE, there are some R2C rode drifting around that are clamped rather than spliced. We have tested a few for people and for one to get to 700kg means it's a stronger one, many have failed below 500kg. If we sent a R2C splice out, of the same size, that failed below 2500kg I'd be pissed off and grumpy as, most of ours would be closer to 3000kg.

 

E-E, yeap that's over kill but nice to know I can add you to my 'Safe to anchor behind' list. It's knot that big a list ;)

 

MBike, Yeap the DOTS has a huge input into it. As do the boats your anchoring.

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I was quite impressed but he did say that was in "ideal" conditions.

The ideal conditions would be leaving the concrete a full three days to fully cure before putting that kind of load on the anchor. :wink:

It's been interesting watching ones around me anchor for the past week. We just came back across from Coromandal this morning. So nice to have communications again :D I watch a boat try to get a hold with a plough at least 5 times, then he tried a different place and it held. It is not exactly the anchors fault as such, it is the bottom type and condition. Ploughs have also work well for many people for many years.

If you pop in and talk to KM, you will actually hear that he (we) don't push any particular brand as being better. The new generation of anchors are all so darn close in performance, it really does come down to which one fits your bow the best. In fact if you get into specs, they can be quite misleading. One very latest anchor from Manson has some unbelievable holding power specs. But the thing is 30% bigger in area, yet rated for boats you would normally put the 30% smaller anchors on. So it's all in how you publish specs.

Make sure you get KM to show you the Sarca anchor ranges. Especially if a plough type design fits your boat best, because they have redesigned that kind of anchor and have an excellent anchor. Sarca also have become the biggest selling range of anchors in the Southern Hemi and once you see one, you will see why. Certainly not saying Manson are not good anchors. They are also good anchors.

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I've been very pleased with the Sarca Excel I picked up from KM last year. More compact than the supreme.

 

When I was younger we picked up on a mussel farm of Te Kouma with a 35# plow. We eventually freed it, but the stuggle twisted the shank between the hinge and the blade. After that it wouldn't set. Looking at it in some clear water, every time it hit the bottom it fell the same way due to the twist, and lay over in such a way that the same twist meant the point faced slightly upward.

 

I've spent more time looking at the structure of those farms since then. Avoid the ends, but along either side should be clear.

 

I've also spent time freeing plows from rocks and the like. If you haven't run a trip line down to the head of the anchor (which of course is usually a pain in the arse, so nobody does), you can try for the same effect by getting a noose around it. If you can't dive deep enough (I can't) you can try pulling up tight so that your rode and chain is vertical, and then dropping a loop down to try to get it around the stock of the anchor (right up by the hinge). The loop could be formed from one end of the chain of your spare tackle. Once you're sure it's in place, you get another boat to haul on that (from a location well to windward) while you slack off our rode a bit. It will take more grunt than a dinghy. If you don't have another boat you can unload your remaining rode into your dinghy (and tie it off) and let it go. The dinghy will be a buoy for your anchor. Then manouvre away from the anchor so that you can haul on the loop, not putting any tension on it until you are well to windward.

 

Where you haul from depends on how you think the anchor is jammed in.

 

This is most likely the sort of tactic you already tried. If so, I sympathise.

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Save yourself the hassle of anchoring around mussel farms and tie off to the farms themselves. The mussel farmers' representative body (can't remember the acronym) actually has a code of practice for this. Only downside is the likelihood of being woken in the early hours by industry boats but this is unlikely up north (or it used to be)

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Make sure you get KM to show you the Sarca anchor ranges. Especially if a plough type design fits your boat best, because they have redesigned that kind of anchor and have an excellent anchor. Sarca also have become the biggest selling range of anchors in the Southern Hemi and once you see one, you will see why. .

 

where does KM hang out - I wold like to see the sarcas - I'm not sure if the Manson 25 # will fit in my anchor well.....

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Scroll down this page and you will see the specs/dimensions of the Sarca range - that will keep you entertained with the measuring tape over the weekend (or until KM has time to respond):

http://www.anchorright.com.au/products/ ... cel-anchor

 

I know what you mean - after the stage of getting recommendations comes the stage of "now which of those will actually fit where I want to put it?".

 

Jumped on board a Whiting 29 over Christmas and was amazed to find that the anchor well accommodated not only the main set of gear but also a smaller fishing grapnel with its own chain and warp. So much space up there it was like another small cabin on the boat.

 

Great post-Christmas thread with lots of informative contributions. :thumbup:

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I found this on the cra site - claims to be independent testing. It makes the standard plough look rather sad in anything but soft sand.

 

I must admit to knot quite compehending the unit of measure other than making a relative comparison.

 

 

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Cav36 that weighs 6.5ton based in mana wellingto. I have 60mtrs 8mm chain& 45lbs mason & dragged everywhere all summer 2 yrs in a row. 20 yrs experience so well practiced changed to a 35lbs mason bingo instant success. Too big can cause problems as th boat dosent have enough weight to set the anchor. Spoke to the guys as chains ropes & anchors & after lots & lots of research I now have a 35lbs sarca excel and can't rave about it highly enough. Absolutely stunned at how easy and how hard it bites in. As An experiment we tried anchoring using a 3 to 1 scope ratio in 30 knots to see what would happen & it set brilliantly. As a added bonus no roll bar means it fits in the anchor locker result easily.Well worth the $$

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The basic story of why Sarca have remade these "older styles" of anchors, is that the design that is "scoop" like, i.e. Rocna, Manson Supreme, Spade etc, are going to be phased out of use in OZ. Due to the bottom being dug up. Over there, the seagrass is especially vulnerable and extremely important to many Sea creatures, like Seahorse and of course the Sea Elephants. So it won't be long before you can no longer use them over there. Sarca is Ozy made by the way. So instead of just copying old designs and putting bigger flukes on like some have, they went about completely retesting how these things work and how to make them work better. Angles of attack are absolutely the key to how an anchor sets and Sarca looked very closely at redesigning to get those angles right.

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I honestly cant rave highly enough about the sarca excel. As far as anchors go its a sexy looking piece of kit, it stowes easily & its performance is unbeatable. The only negative I have is the price at $700 for a 35lbs but when was boating economical :)

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Sup biatches?

 

Yes there are other options than the Supreme, the Sarca range certianly being one, but that's a few MB, maybe GB's of discussion worth of topic if we go dep into all that now. The Supreme is good, there is zero doubt about that, so anyone hanging off one of those, with a decent rode between that and the boat, is a boat I'll anchor behind.

 

Fit, yeap that is one downside on the new generation anchors, most being area based does mean they are physically larger than the old school plows. While that is great when it's deployed it can be a big arse when you have to carry the bitches around. Hence why we do see the 15lb to 8mm chain systems, I'd think a few of those have come about due to space. That's OK as everything is a compromise to some degree and that system is still good, just I'd suggest the 25lber to 7mm is a tad better....... if you can fit it in but a 15lber to 8mm certainly isn't bad at all.

 

Farrari, That's produced by a crowd in Aussie called Robertsons, they are a bit like our SGS and test all sorts of stuff for all sorts of people. They don't make or sell anchors. That test data was commissioned by the Aussie Govt due to their love of bureaucracy, which is thinking of making all anchors used there certified. hy how what for no one knows but it keeps the suits happy I suppose. That graph is the results of over 100 tests in many bottoms over the last 18 months odd. There is more where they show what actually happens in the assorted bottom types, all seriously interesting stuff to sad fuckers like myself who like that shite. Of all the tests done around the world that series would arguably be the one where most of the variables have been eliminated so that data is all just the anchor knot with the many variables they have to contend with. The scale is kg of holding per kg of anchor weight. An example would be the Supreme holds 65kg per kg of it's own weight where the Delta only holds 20 in the same bottom type. That doesn't mean 20kg per 1 is bad but personally I would far prefer the 65 to 1, especially give they are close as dammit the same price.

 

Prices - The Sarca and Manson ranges are built in Melbourne and Auckland respectively with the top end materials one would expect countries like those to use, along with the quality assurance oversite, they do have independent Approvals, but also with all the costs that lot involves. The CQR is pretty much chasing the Dodo's and the other 2 are made in china. Interestingly the most expensive and least approved anchors in that selection aren't the ones made in NZ or Aussie.

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From sail world

 

 

How we survived ex-Cyclone Oswald on our Manson Supreme.

 

 

 

'S/V Beverly Ann successfully rode out ex-Cyclone Oswald'   

Cindy and John Curby of the s/v Beverly Ann, a 50ft displacement yacht, describe how they were able to ride out ex-Cyclone Oswald, off Moreton Island near Brisbane on Australia's east coast.

 

We recently had a bad experience when our old 65 lb Bruce anchor dragged and left us stranded for a day and a half.

 

After studying the alternatives we decided to immediately upgrade to a Manson Supreme. We opted for an 80lb anchor, one size up from the 60lb recommended for our 50ft medium displacement yacht, as we tend to anchor out and travel to remote locations.

 

A few days after installing the Manson we were anchored off Moreton Island near Brisbane, just as ex-cyclone Oswald hit south-east Queensland. For four days we sat at anchor on our new Manson watching as the massive storm battered the coast. Wind speeds at times exceeded 65 knots, and we spent a day and night with sustained winds over 50 knots. The experience of trying to sleep through 50 knot winds was interesting to say the least. Keeping a constant watch on our anchor alarm, and regularly recording our position, convinced us that the anchor hadn’t budged.

 

At the height of the storm our 16mm nylon snubber line snapped, but the Manson held solid. The winds were strong enough to cover our deck in sand from the sand dunes a mile away. The storm tragically left six people dead, with over $200 million in damages, with some regions suffering their worst floods on record.

 

We are extremely pleased with the Manson and will not hesitate to recommend it.

 

Dragging and stranding on our old anchor was an expensive, messy, and distressing experience. We already have total confidence in our new Manson. It is cheap insurance given the alternative.

 

 

Manson Supreme held fast in ex-Cyclone Pswald -  .. .  

 

 

by Cindy and John Curby

 

  

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