Anchors and warp

[wheels 543]

Um theres nothing wrong with dropping the anchor and driving it in frontwards. Its particularly useful when stern lining in on boats that won't go backwards nicely

Um, yes there is. But hey, you want to do it that way, go for it.

[rigger 47]

The following method is one used in the offshore.

 

Prep anchor - steam towards drop point, drop anchor in spot, run chain out whilst steaming ahead, lock brake up at predetermined amount, as the chain loads up screw vessel around then back down to tie up med moor to rig - backing up often requires 75% power to take the lines from the rig.

Before scewing the vessel round the anchor is set.

 

Much quicker than the conventional method.

[Island Time 1,235]

Ok wheels, what's wrong with this method, other than the load it can put on your capstan winch?

[B00B00 310]

Um theres nothing wrong with dropping the anchor and driving it in frontwards. Its particularly useful when stern lining in on boats that won't go backwards nicely

Um, yes there is. But hey, you want to do it that way, go for it.

 

I don't think it matters which way the boats facing at the time as long as the anchor and chain are laying the right way?

[Kiteroa 8]

What would you guys use on the Young 8.4? We were cruising over christmas with a 35 pound CQR and 10m of 8mm chain. Dragged all over the show at barrier. Plenty of warp out, I just can't get the boat to keep her anchor in one place. She runs circles around the anchor, tacks all over the place and pulls it out.

[Guest]

What would you guys use on the Young 8.4? We were cruising over christmas with a 35 pound CQR and 10m of 8mm chain. Dragged all over the show at barrier. Plenty of warp out, I just can't get the boat to keep her anchor in one place. She runs circles around the anchor, tacks all over the place and pulls it out.

Done a shedload of miles and countless anchorings using a 35lb cqr on a Whiting 29 but with 50m 8mm chain. Dragged a couple of times until I installed an electric windlass, never dragged since.

[wheels 543]

Ok wheels, what's wrong with this method, other than the load it can put on your capstan winch?

Well if you don't think loading your winch like that is a negative, then I doubt I can convince ones setting their anchor this way, that it is not best practice.

The technique may work 99% of the time as well, but when the weather gets nasty, those that have anchored this way are also the same ones that end up scooting off across a bay or into other vessels. The only time I could see such a technique being workable, would be if you actually head into an anchoring position and drop the rode in the direction you want to lay the rode out(eg. with the wind or current), let the anchor bite and then let the boat turn around to face the anchor which is now way out in front of you. But few situations are going to allow that in a crowded anchorage.

Anyway, the list of negatives are,

Excessive load on winch

Chain/rode could pull back against bow or Keel.

Anchor sets in wrong direction.

Chain lays ahead of set anchor.

Both those two above mean that when you back under motor or light wind, you may not pull enough to straighten both out fully in direction of wind. If wind picks up, you may drag due to gear not set correctly. And how many have either had or have seen boats drag when a weather change takes place and a big blow arrives.

Please note that I am not saying this technique is going to cause said scenario every time. You may get away with anchoring that way each and every time. But it still does not mean that it is good practice. The thing is, I reckon on average we would deal with one customer per day, that has an issue with their anchor not setting, rode that has failed in some way due to stress, winch or gypsy failing or badly worn and not working correctly, or something due to poor anchoring techniques. Even in discussions on Crew.org, you have to have noted that some say I have always had trouble getting my XYJ anchor to set and another will come along and say, well we have XYJ and have anchored with no problem for years. The only difference in the end would be the technique.

[John B 106]

We used to do that all the time when we had no motor( about 7 years of it) as one of the methods in the repertoire. We either used it for accurate placing of the anchor in a tight anchorage, when we were running in with staysail say after dropping the main further away, or as a method of last resort when we'd had trouble getting the anchor to set. Rightly or wrongly , we refer to it as a running moor on our boat and may do it still in light conditions or emergency I imagine, but as wheels says, with risk to paint and antifoul.

When we fitted the motor eventually and with exactly the same gear we began to have trouble setting it with the standard stop ,drop and reverse. I believe that sailing in upwind and dropping you always had some small overrun or yaw and that screwed the anchor in. Worked for us anyway.

That was with either a big danforth or manson cqr type. Setting issues are largely a thing of the past with the new generation anchors and as someone said earlier a chain counter really nails it.

Incidentally we never anchor where the windlass( now electric etc) takes the strain. We have a short snubber and chain hook we nip on before digging in.

[Farrari 4]

What would you guys use on the Young 8.4? We were cruising over christmas with a 35 pound CQR and 10m of 8mm chain. Dragged all over the show at barrier. Plenty of warp out, I just can't get the boat to keep her anchor in one place. She runs circles around the anchor, tacks all over the place and pulls it out.

 

I have a Manson plough on my 1020 with 20m of 8mm chain and I find that it doesn't set well on a hard sandy bottom like many of the bays at Barrier (I think Wheels has made reference to this in the thread earlier on). Sometimes it will take me three or more times to get it to bite. If it's not dug in well it is also not very good at a rapid change of direction although the 20m of chain I have helps to dappen that. I dig mine in hard using reverse on the motor as extra protection.

 

I'm waiting on this new Excel alloy anchor KM has been promising me for a looooooong time ... although I'm starting to wonder if it's a figment of his imagination

 

Short answer (in my limited experience) you need a new generation anchor - ditch the old plough and go talk to KM IMHO.

[Island Time 1,235]

Wheels,

I don't think you follow the method moving fwd quite right. This is perhaps a better explaination;

 

Moving (Slowly, Not in gear, or engine off under headsail) directly downwind, 180 deg heading from that you require from anchored position. Lower the anchor, don't drop heaps of chain really fast!! Anchor hits the bottom, and fwd movement lays it in direction required - some tension is on the chain. Pay out correct scope, using the boats movement (still moving fwd), when scope is layed, stop paying out, lock chain with chain lock or snubber, turn the boat slightly the way you want to turn, or the side you think the chain is on. Boats momentum sets the anchor, and rounds up to the anchor. Douse your sail.

 

Result is the anchor is set, in the correct direction, with all the chain in a straight (mostly - a little curve in the end, but no more than normally caused by boat swinging at anchor) line to the boat. I learned this method years ago in a vessel with no engine, where going astern is not possible/easy under sail... I'd still use it in the same situation. it does take some practice to get the chain layed correctly (straight) without turning the boat too early...

 

Without a chain lock or easily set snubber, there is potential for a large shock load on the anchor winch. Not recomended as you said wheels. There is some risk to antifouling etc, if moving too fast, and the method is less risky to paint in deeper water using all chain, as the sag in the chain takes it away from the vessel quite quickly. Also not recomended in a boat with a bobstay, as it can catch on the chain....

 

Finally, IMO CQR anchors (Plough-any brand) are no good in hard sand. I used to have one, and got rid of it for that reason after dragging. Replace it with a modern anchor (Manson Supreme, Rocna etc) and you'll have no issues.

[Guest]

People 'set' their anchor? What a quaint idea.

 

Joshing there before anyone does something silly. But I don't set my anchor on my latest beast, never have never needed too as it'll set itself when it's ready. But then as you'd expect I do run a little bit different gear then most. But then I also have to live with the constant fear I'll drag and be seen doing it

 

The hassle many have setting their gear is speed as in they are just going to fast. Let the wind push the boat back until you feel the anchor bite then give it a little throttle if you like. If you want to get real anal do that then leave it for 15-30 mins then apply more throttle.

 

Too fast, and I'm talking 2-3 knts is often way to fast, just means the anchor can be floating around like a kite and knot even on the bottom you're trying to hook into. We do enjoy a good giggle watching fizz nasties doing black smokers in backward while they bitch their anchor is crap and won't work. 'Errr.... dude, that's the reason we call you a DOTS', you are the DICK in the stick.

 

As we all tend to anchor in the 3 to 5:1 scope range, which is perfectly fine most of the usual time, don't forget that when you apply big curry to your anchor system you will be applying quite a upward load to the anchor. They don't like that too much so can be pulled out easier. If you really want to power set the bitch run out to large scope, 10:1 would be good, crank the bitch in then shorten your rode up again. The more horizontal you can pull the anchor the more load it will hold and the deeper it'll drive in. At 3:1 you will be pulling upwards a lot and that does decrease it's holding capabilities. More than 10:1 scope isn't really needed so don't bother.

 

When you set most anchors in a typical NZ bottom, that generally being sand of assorted types, you liquefy it to a degree. Do you really expect to set your anchor well in a bowl of porridge? Hence the let it bite then settle before you apply big pull. With that in mind, that is the reason, or part of it, the Excel has that fancy name and so on cut in it, that's the to allow the water to squeeze out during setting so it gets the anchor into a 'drier' substrate faster. Go down the beach and drag one thru the waterline and it's obvious to see.... says the man who 1st heard that and straight away thought 'Take ya hand off it'. It's damn hard to say this, especially out loud but sexy Rexy the dude who is Mr Sarca is a clever dude..... that hard part about that is I just praised an Aussie. I apologise to those now offended by my semi despicable actions.

 

But that does go to show there is more than one way to skin a cat as our very own Manson think a little different but also get the the 'real fecking good' place with their product. It's quite interesting to see the 2 leading players in taking anchors to bigger and better places are both ANZAC's. But then we do use them harder than most other nations so we need good sh*t. Also when you look hard those 2 also are the best value anchors as they are made with the best stuff by people who have to prove they can weld etc in countries knot prone to short cutting. They are all tested by 3rd parties as well. Most of the other anchors on the market tend to be made in china without a lot, or any in many cases, of that quality materials or checking yet are sold at the same price if knot higher prices, it's weird.............. but then does show the power of marketing as those average ones are also the most marketed anchors. So it's very much a case, IMHO, we have the best gear with average marketing and the average gear with great marketing.

 

I was speaking to them early in the week F and it's a lot closer. They have cracked the manufacturing issue they were trying to get around and testing has been happening.

 

That's a weird one WT, I would have expected that to be OK for you. Maybe it's something to to with yellow or a shade of. Check to see it hasn't been re-galvanised and someone forgot to refill the tip, that will make them work like crap........ if it works at all. If it's a genuine CQR it may have flogged out the knuckle, they do that after a while.... usually a long while though but once that happens it pisses with the geometry and weird sh*t can happen..

[John B 106]

Historically ( again) we would carry a big danforth for a quick set in the east coast sand and switch to a manson cqr for the deep mud in fitzroy. My experience was the danforth would skate in the silt at barrier and the old CQR pattern wouldn't set fast enough in the sand between the kelp up the coast.

Mine now is pre meltdown Rocna, but I'd be happy with either of the other new generation patterns ( except for the newest manson.. too damn big in area to go anywhere on my boat).

The other thing we began to do a few years ago was switch our chartplotter onto a split screen fishfinder coming into anchor ,as it tells you directly what sort of terrain is below you. Its amazing just how often you can find yourself over kelp/ rock /papa in places you might not expect. Or if you are expecting it, it allows you to search around for a flat spot of sand in between.

Those are the cool places to be often, so its a good tool.

[John B 106]

Why the hell can't we have an edit button Squid? We just want to correct spelling or grammar, or add clarification.

 

Coz I don't know how to add one

[PaulR 3]

But then as you'd expect I do run a little bit different gear then most. But then I also have to live with the constant fear of being in drag and be seen doing it

 

Minor correction there KM, but respect for being so honest

 

 

Photos or it's just chains ropes and w.....anchors

[PaulR 3]

. . .

The other thing we began to do a few years ago was switch our chartplotter onto a split screen fishfinder coming into anchor ,as it tells you directly what sort of terrain is below you. Its amazing just how often you can find yourself over kelp/ rock /papa in places you might not expect. Or if you are expecting it, it allows you to search around for a flat spot of sand in between.

Those are the cool places to be often, so its a good tool.

 

 

Thanks John, will try that next time we need to anchor.

Need to read up (again) about our plotter first to see if possible but our plotter is not connected to a transducer . . . yet.

[wheels 543]

Moving (Slowly, Not in gear, or engine off under headsail) directly downwind, 180 deg heading from that you require from anchored position. Lower the anchor, don't drop heaps of chain really fast!! Anchor hits the bottom, and fwd movement lays it in direction required - some tension is on the chain. Pay out correct scope, using the boats movement (still moving fwd), when scope is layed, stop paying out, lock chain with chain lock or snubber, turn the boat slightly the way you want to turn, or the side you think the chain is on. Boats momentum sets the anchor, and rounds up to the anchor. Douse your sail.

I see no problem with that. Plus it isn't the angle I was coming from anyway. I am talking about the ones that come ripping in to a Bay and while still motoring or at lest moving forward into the Wind, they drop the anchor and let it grab to stop the movement forward, drop out their chain and rode and then back back.

KM and I were discussing this subject this morning, I see he posted the same comment that he "does not set the anchor" and during the discussion I made the comment that we had two very dramatic differences in weight. My boat is 26tonne, so I make sure my anchor is set. If she starts to drag and gets some way on, then it may not be a nice outcome.

[Island Time 1,235]

Figured we must be at cross purposes, not often we disagree!

[wheels 543]

And I was also meant to say in that, Moving forward at speed

[Murky 1]

The other funny one that you see occasionally is the launches that clearly subscribe to the "whichever angle I motor astern at is how I will hang" philosophy: drop the anchor in a non-gap in the bay then try to make it look good by motoring back at 45 or even 90 degrees to the breeze and wonder how it all comes unstuck within the first few minutes.

 

Hey I've got an edit button! Nothing I wanted to change but I felt compelled to do something with it before it disappeared again.

[Guest]

I'm amazed at how some launches anchor

 

They have 2 motors and an electric winch and they still need to anchor 3 times or more?

 

How hard can anchoring a launch be...