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No Offence taken and i probably presummed to much from such a talented bunch of people.

 

Also Knotme's twisting of the numbers (includinng fizz boats) did require attention (as this is a sailing forum... thank god)

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I've just caught up on the thread - Interesting reading.

 

Couple of comments.

 

Swell- mate- I think your over reacting a little to KM's comments.

I think entirely valid.

 

The market has certainly swung to fizz nastys as a whole.

 

Do I appreciate that - Hell no.

 

But a VAST majority of the punters out there want to buy them.

 

(note the vast number of the incompetent users of the hauraki gulf...)

 

I'd love to see a reasonably priced 30 something footer new build.

Most of us who are willing to put $$ up on the table come to the realisation locally- that the best option on the table is to buy a "old" 930 or similar and give it a birthday.

 

The boats we build 30 odd years ago are damn good....and while technology and designs have gone on...the size of the local market has SHRUNK!

 

MASSIVELY.

 

I'd be accused of thread drift here- but have you noticed what's happened to yacht club memberships.....?

 

The options people have to do in their spare time since the 80's/early 90's has changed.

 

ie- computers and playstation etc. Kite surfing, SUP, gyms, dance parties, Eccy mondays, blah blah blah.

I'm sure you can see where I'm going.

 

Society has changed from the heyday of the 80's.

 

I'd love to see a modern stewart/930/88/E5.9 type boat happen.

 

Nearest to it now is the investments made into boats like the E7 by the youth Scheme backers etc now.

 

No other way to get a 1 design or class going in IMHO.

 

It needs a bunch of people to agree to commit to a programme...and put SIGNIFICANT $$ behind it.

 

BOat builders can't finance a class.

 

I'd agree that it would be nice to see the industry association get behind the design and build of a new Modern design to be fostered and built locally. However I would not see any govt assistance going to that.

 

And Auckland Shitty Council would be the last helper. Their out to rape all us boat owners emphatically.

 

ACC IMOH have no interest in yacht owners. The city of sails is dead. We are a bunch of exploitable people to be preyed on as a revenue stream and provide our historic resource (westhaven/oraki- which previous councils made available for maritime use) to the greater city for their viewing leisure.

 

Westhaven is about to lose loads of carparks for redevelopment of a walkway.

 

Most of this has been done by the council without proper consultancy. Waterfront Auckland are crooks as far as I'm concerned.

 

Good luck with the idea of govt backing to help the industry and promotion of it.

 

I'd love to see it- but I think the boys in the game are in a game of capitalism wins. Understand and adapt to that game to be successful in it.

 

Thats ugly to say- but its the truth. My heart says otherwise but my brain knows it to be so.

 

 

Gee i like that. nice words...

 

and i did bight at Knotme's "thread drift" :wink: as i presumed we were " :sailor: people.

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:? You've made more posts in this thread talking about me and fizz boats than on the topic, Swell. Is there something I should be concerned about?

 

Can you please explain why you have said so many times people who build boats that have no sails are knot boat builders? You may be onto something that could help the industry grow to bigger and better, that can only be a good thing.

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This is a really interesting thread. Particularly interesting is the myth perpetuated here that Euro boats are inferior to NZ boats...

 

As someone who previously owned a Dufour, (OK a long time ago), and someone who looked at the NZ market hard before following his heart to buy a Ross 40 (and not his brain saying "Stop! This will cost you a fortune" And it has..) I have a few comments on the Euro boats that may not go down well here, but have to be said.

 

On the whole, NZ boats, production and otherwise, are NOT well finished. The Beneteaus, Dufours, Jeanneaus etc, leave them for dead. And certainly the older Euro boats anyway, were WAY stronger than the equivalent NZ boat. What I put my Dufour 29 through, no NZ built boat would have survived unless it was steel... :D :D . I would have ripped the keel off a Y88 with some of my groundings in the Rhine and Rhone in the Dufour.. Hard to break a masthead rigged lamp-post as well. NZ boats lose their masts all the time. The Y88, Y11s, Ross boats all have small mast sections compared to a Euro production boat, and are susceptable to misuse. ( :oops: :oops: :oops: ).

 

Having said that, my old Dufour 29 was slow, handled badly (IOR design) and was not particularly nice to sail. 9 knots down a wave was out of control... Most NZ boats such as 88s, Y11s, Ross boats in general, Elliot 1050s and so on, are a Delight to sail, responsive, light, fast and seaworthy. When I first helmed a Ross 40 (Urban Cowboy in a Coastal) they had to prise the tiller out of my hands, and I couldn't get rid of the grin on my face. It was like sailing a big laser...

 

But please don't tell me they are well finished, inside anyway. The wiring is generally very poor. Engine installations basic and often lacking good soundproofing and ventilation, The hulls have no liners (Dufour invented the inner moulding and grid back in the 70s that really gives a nice inside finish). Poor use is made of space, whereas the Euro boats use every last scrap of space with cunning lockers, decent heads, large cabins and so on. Yes NZ woodwork is amazing, and the skill of our tradesmen second to none, but our production boats came a poor second to the Euros for comfort and interior finish.

 

Of course the Euros also pioneered the assembly line production of yachts, something that I guess is only economical when you have numbers. Kiwi boat-builders were just not that far sighted, and constantly hamstrung by problems like the Muldoon boat tax, whereas the French builders in particular got government assistance and had the advantage of a massive marketplace on their back door... They also fell over one by one, but Beneteau bought them. (They own Dufour and Jeanneau to the best of my knowledge).

 

I think the Euros deserve their status as #1 sellers, and if you look at the recent round NZ race, they're obviously not TOO badly built either!

 

I shall now duck for cover!!

 

Smithy, I do agree with you in part but I think comparing cruising production boats with locally built race boats isn't a fair comparison.

You should be comparing your Dufour to a Chico 30 if you want a true strength comparison, not a Y88 or Ross 930 which were very radical and light boats when they came out.

 

Race boats are built as light as possible with as much weight as possible on the keel, cruising production boats have very heavy hulls and light (often just solid cast iron with no lead) keels. All that extra lining on the inside may look pretty but it comes at huge performance costs.

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Unfortunately I think you'll find there's a very good reason why Toyota (or any other mass vehicle producing Japanese company) haven't entered this market with their expertise.

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Incorrect Knotme.

 

I have corrected you when you use poor examples to justify your answers... on a number of times.

 

I have also added to the post with relevant information, as it may pertain to the topic, in a sailing forum.

 

In a sailing forum i would expect a discussion regarding "boat builders" to be about vessels that have sails.

 

Most people, on this site, hold "power vessels" with distain.

 

Bit of a no brainer really, but as i said, above, i presumed wrongly. :? :cry:

 

I find it weird that you become a "maverick answer man" then dig your toes in when i think you are way of the crux of the topic (sailing)

 

But! We might be onto something with regard to why Fizzers are going OK whille Flappers are not.

 

Maybe it's the New Kiwi "lazy" way to spend the available cash on something easy to get on the water with and that has lower costs (store at home)... or maye fishing is just to easy and too good?

 

But maybe its the value for money and less regulation that Fizzers offer versus Yachts and yachting's governance. That and it's easier too learn to drive a fizzer v Flapper?

 

Or? it could be that Fizzer manufacture a product in a less competitive market (overseas) and so have better volumes. Also value for length they are a heap cheaper than a yacht.

 

I think the real reason for yachtbuilding decilne is the fact that yachting post 1990 saw a decline in young people entering the sport and those 20 year old kids, back then, would be 30-40 yo keel boat buyers in 2000-2010.

 

The buyer market dried up.

 

Combine this with the Americas Cup diverting peoples attention, our best designers going offshore and working for the Europeans, and the lack of new design evolution. this just opened the door to the European boats.

 

 

But i could be wrong.

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Afraid to answer specific questions I see Swell. That's OK as I know why but still love ya all the same :lol: :lol:

 

Yamaha have been building boats for a long time, some are yachts and some are {inappropriate word deleted} Some of those yachts were built for them in Akl if I remember correctly as were a few {inappropriate word deleted} The mob that were building the yachts and the {inappropriate word deleted} were also doing some for another big name brand, that's knot springing to mind at the moment but it is a very well known one. Oyster it could have been. They must have built a hell of a lot over the years. I think the same NZ mob also sold a few of the {inappropriate word deleted} in NZ for Toyota, a swap ya sort of a thing I'm guessing. They were OK, a little unusual layout compared to what we usually see here but a mate had one and thought it was great. It did go pretty well but then it had 2 big {inappropriate word deleted} so it's no surprise really. I think production of that lot has since moved to china.

 

I was speaking to a {inappropriate word deleted} builder an hour ago by the name of {inappropriate word deleted} and they build 100's of {inappropriate word deleted} boats a year of which over 40% are exported. So you can say whatever you like but I'd say that one {inappropriate word deleted} builder produces more export receipts for NZ today than any, maybe all, yacht builder 30 years ago would have. They were disappointed to hear a very tiny few don't regard them as either boat builders nor part of the marine industry especially with the huge input they have in so many ways. They are currently booming with numbers larger than ever before.

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I think the real reason for yachtbuilding decilne is the fact that yachting post 1990 saw a decline in young people entering the sport and those 20 year old kids, back then, would be 30-40 yo keel boat buyers in 2000-2010.

 

The buyer market dried up.

 

 

Methinks it had something to do with the fact that in 1990 you could buy a family home for $250k on one income and now it's +$450k on two incomes.

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I think the real reason for yachtbuilding decilne is the fact that yachting post 1990 saw a decline in young people entering the sport and those 20 year old kids, back then, would be 30-40 yo keel boat buyers in 2000-2010.

 

The buyer market dried up.

 

 

Methinks it had something to do with the fact that in 1990 you could buy a family home for $250k on one income and now it's +$450k on two incomes.

 

...and that too.

 

...and Saturday trading

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This is a really interesting thread. Particularly interesting is the myth perpetuated here that Euro boats are inferior to NZ boats...

 

As someone who previously owned a Dufour, (OK a long time ago), and someone who looked at the NZ market hard before following his heart to buy a Ross 40 (and not his brain saying "Stop! This will cost you a fortune" And it has..) I have a few comments on the Euro boats that may not go down well here, but have to be said.

 

On the whole, NZ boats, production and otherwise, are NOT well finished. The Beneteaus, Dufours, Jeanneaus etc, leave them for dead. And certainly the older Euro boats anyway, were WAY stronger than the equivalent NZ boat. What I put my Dufour 29 through, no NZ built boat would have survived unless it was steel... :D :D . I would have ripped the keel off a Y88 with some of my groundings in the Rhine and Rhone in the Dufour.. Hard to break a masthead rigged lamp-post as well. NZ boats lose their masts all the time. The Y88, Y11s, Ross boats all have small mast sections compared to a Euro production boat, and are susceptable to misuse. ( :oops: :oops: :oops: ).

 

Having said that, my old Dufour 29 was slow, handled badly (IOR design) and was not particularly nice to sail. 9 knots down a wave was out of control... Most NZ boats such as 88s, Y11s, Ross boats in general, Elliot 1050s and so on, are a Delight to sail, responsive, light, fast and seaworthy. When I first helmed a Ross 40 (Urban Cowboy in a Coastal) they had to prise the tiller out of my hands, and I couldn't get rid of the grin on my face. It was like sailing a big laser...

 

But please don't tell me they are well finished, inside anyway. The wiring is generally very poor. Engine installations basic and often lacking good soundproofing and ventilation, The hulls have no liners (Dufour invented the inner moulding and grid back in the 70s that really gives a nice inside finish). Poor use is made of space, whereas the Euro boats use every last scrap of space with cunning lockers, decent heads, large cabins and so on. Yes NZ woodwork is amazing, and the skill of our tradesmen second to none, but our production boats came a poor second to the Euros for comfort and interior finish.

 

Of course the Euros also pioneered the assembly line production of yachts, something that I guess is only economical when you have numbers. Kiwi boat-builders were just not that far sighted, and constantly hamstrung by problems like the Muldoon boat tax, whereas the French builders in particular got government assistance and had the advantage of a massive marketplace on their back door... They also fell over one by one, but Beneteau bought them. (They own Dufour and Jeanneau to the best of my knowledge).

 

I think the Euros deserve their status as #1 sellers, and if you look at the recent round NZ race, they're obviously not TOO badly built either!

 

I shall now duck for cover!!

 

Smithy, I do agree with you in part but I think comparing cruising production boats with locally built race boats isn't a fair comparison.

You should be comparing your Dufour to a Chico 30 if you want a true strength comparison, not a Y88 or Ross 930 which were very radical and light boats when they came out.

 

Race boats are built as light as possible with as much weight as possible on the keel, cruising production boats have very heavy hulls and light (often just solid cast iron with no lead) keels. All that extra lining on the inside may look pretty but it comes at huge performance costs.

 

Fair comment Booboo, but even the NZ cruising boats are not as well finished. You are probably right on the strength bit though, not comparing apples with apples. I do wonder when I see all the comments about French boats not being up to the task. My old Dufour was bulletproof! I know the Beneteaus went through a bad patch for a while, as did the Bavarias, especially the race versions, but equally there have been a lot of NZ boats built too light and failed.

The 1020 and Elliot 1050s, Noelex 25s and 30s would have to be the closest we have to production yachts?? All not as strong, and not as well finished inside as a Froggie boat of the era I reckon.. Just a lot faster..

 

When it comes to straight out sailing though, Kiwi boats rock, and I'm dead chuffed to own one! :D :D :D

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Agree with a few points made here.

 

Kiwi boats generally aren't as nicely finished inside as euro or american boats

 

However the Hull shapes and sailing characteristics were way ahead in the 80's, maybe because we were quicker to dismiss IOR and do our own thing. The euro production boats have caught up now but you see influence from IRC and people wanting high volume/length.

 

The average kiwi cruiser/racer from the 80's is still light and fast compared to a brand new production boat from euro. Didn't the first 34.7 get beaten by a stewart 34 in the coastal?

 

Now days the supply meets or exceeds the demand, the boats have lasted exceptionally well.

 

ln Chch anyway most of the young professionals I know have all their money tied up in property. Buying a cheap used yacht, if you want a yacht generally makes the most sense as it doesn't cost much and you get most of your money back when you sell it.

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I'm in with Booboo, you can't compare the AWB imports with a NZ built one, thats like lining up a Corolla mass produced next to a Fraser near one off build, they are very different.

 

Also I'm really struggling to see where the imports are better finished comments are coming from as that's knot what we see. Also many imports often get a fair amount of tweaking on arrival pre going splash. The imports can often be better presented but that's mainly as they hide all the ugly bits behind clip on panels. Take some of those off, assuming it's knot like a new import and many would be horrified at just how rough some of the stuff in behind those can be. Some are shockers and rough as guts behind the pretty façade. I was at the launching of a locally built boat knot long ago and the level of finish would give a most a boner. Never once seen anything even slightly close to that on any import and we see a lot of imports.

 

One of the best finished boats we've seen for a long time was a 48Ft boat that, how do I say it now??, it had a I measurement of nothing. It was tidier behind the scenes than many are in the front... but it was put together lite so it'll be interesting to see how it'll stand the test of time.

 

Imports are generally OK but they are production boats so by the nature do lack the fine tuned detailing a non-production boat tends to get and as most of NZ's production boats are totally different in so many ways there really isn't any comparisons to be made anyway.

 

The worse thing about many imports is you could blindfold most people and drop them randomly into random boats then take the blindfold off. 99% would instantly know where they are in NZ built boat or a imported production boat as all the imports look the bloody same and often lack any personality. At times when the blindfold comes off it would be hard to work out if you are in a yacht or non yacht.

 

Burger patties - What's best, the production ones from the supermarket or the home made buggers. Same applies to the boats.

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Burger patties - What's best, the production ones from the supermarket or the home made buggers. Same applies to the boats.

 

:lol:

 

Depends whether they've got horse meat in them or not.

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The 1020 and Elliot 1050s, Noelex 25s and 30s would have to be the closest we have to production yachts?? All not as strong, and not as well finished inside as a Froggie boat of the era I reckon.. Just a lot faster..

 

When it comes to straight out sailing though, Kiwi boats rock, and I'm dead chuffed to own one! :D :D :D

 

A lot of kiwi boats were put together by owners from hull and decks/interior packages so there is a big variation across the second hand market now.

 

And there's not much that touch a Ross40 for cool even now :D

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Agree that Imports are not as good as Kiwi built in a lot of cases and thus the extra cost of a Kiwi build boat.

 

But if i was offered the choice on a 40 footer i would choose a Farr 395 over a Ross 40 on everything except Price.

 

Even then the Farr 395 @$125K USD is a good proposition as a cruiser/racer/cruiser

 

 

http://www.farryachtsales.com/sales/boa ... -blue-moon

 

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=farr+ ... 25&bih=654

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