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Lifelines, lashings, why?


banaari

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I need some education: What's the rationale behind using lashings for the final links in the lifelines, rather than more conventional stainless hardware?

 

And is there a specific cordage should be used?

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The idea is that it can be cut in an emergency to allow the lifeline to be lowered to the deck. Like to help retrieve a person over the side.

Never heard of a specific material requirement. Lashing should be similar strength to the wire, with good UV lifespan...

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Another reasoning is that metal turnbuckles are good for load in straight tension, but don't take to bending or deflection that well, lifelines are dynamic as people lean on then etc and turnbuckles have been known to work harden and snap off at the threads.

 

Lashings can take the flex easily, 4 or 5 full lashes (complete loops so 8parts etc) of 3mm spectraspeed or covered dynema normally does the job and is as strong as the wire and has enough safety to be able to handle some UV

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Why? easier, cheaper and less painful.

 

Interestingly enough I spend quite a time last year sussing lifeline lashings. I found a very significant number that are in use today are basically totally sh*t and would fail if put to the test by more than a pre-schooler. It seems people put them on then forget about them, hello people safety equipment so look after it or when you need if for safety reasons it'll be the Coroner who tells everyone how bad your lashings were.

 

I wondered Westhaven and Bayswater marinas noting all the lashings being used, type, size, the actual technics and made an estimate of their age. Then that was put to the test. The average sighted lashing in those 2 marinas failed at around 30% of the wires load and contrary to what many think the wires load isn't that high and it is decreasing by the year. 10 years ago the wire being sold and used was stronger than the wire being used and sold today.

 

So to anyone reading this CHECK YOUR LASHINGS. It's easy, cheap and takes around 1 stubbie to check and replace as required.

 

What to use? Like CosaNostra I'd also say dyneema/spectra based.... but that's only as he's mafia and scary.... Oh and he is right ;) You can go naked if you like but I can't really see the point as it's an arse to tie nicely and that is important, so I'd also say covered. I do use 3mm myself and I do have at least 5 full rotations. I know that is stronger than the wire it's lashing and will be nearly as strong as my new fibre replacements so I will be upping the rotations of if I have a moment of wankery just for the sake of it I may use a SK90 or maybe even a 105.

 

UV isn't a big issue but in the same breath it is. It isn't as ropes are generally made to handle our UV conditions, which are worse than most places, as the yarn dudes get told to use extra inhibitors. BUT IN SAYING THAT THE PEOPLE WHO BUY FOR M10, BUNNINGS AND ALL THOSE SORTS have no idea hence that only sell sh*t crap fucken dangerous ropes, never go there unless you need some to tie a tarp on your trailer or to wrap a dead dog. There is one mob selling polyprop into the marine market here with no UV but they have been busted and besides no self-respecting yachtie would use bullshit 3 strand polycrap anyway. How do you tell the difference? You don't, the good stuff looks just like the sh*t stuff.

 

So the UV is sort of catered for here in NZ by reputable manufacturers and suppliers. BUT over time it does get in so that's the worry you need to worry about. I'd say replace every few seasons as a just in case. We are only talking 4mts of 3mm so $10 or less. What's ya kids life worth?

 

I was gonna say wifes life but suspected some of the answers may have got some into deep trouble :lol: :lol:

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....why life lines ?... Now before you jump....Unless weight is an issue (racing) why would you knot have solid rails ?

First most life lines are way to low for any kind of bumpy sea state....they should be called "stay away from me or I will trip you straight overboard, unless you are walking on your bum lines"

Second they cut like crazy on water soaked skin.

Particulaly now that it is frowned upon to have plastic coverings on them.

One hard run down and they draw blood.

Third, life lines may hold staunchions under load outwards but they are crap inboard. How many staunchions have you seen that are bent, leak, or with bolts pulling through the deck (backing plate and all !)

Fourth, solid rails give serious rope purchase. You can run a rope over them....take this point seriously...if you are pulling from deck level once your MOB reaches that level you need to "get them around the corner"..

The higher the lift angle the more possible this is.

You also have ready quick fix points higher than the MOB to re purchase the lift.

Sixth the gap between the middle rail and scuppers should be high enough to pull the average person through, in actual fact a help because the rescue person/persons have something solid to brace themselves on.....remeber the boat will be stationary and as a result probably rocking like crazy.

Seventh....Life lines will only go slack when the lashings are cut, you cant actualy get rid of them because the eye wont pull through the next staunchion, that means you have to deal with them by keeping them somehow out the way of snagging the MOB on retreaval.........

 

I hope that is some solid arguments !

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1 - Yes they are low but most are used more as a edge marker than saving people falling off.

2 - Yeap wire can but then wire is now old school and the rope we use is babies bum smooth but some are using ropes that will act like wire so I suppose it all depends

3 - I've seen about as many bent stanchions as I've seen bent solid rails. Stanchions straighten easier.

4 - In a MOB who give a sh*t about what where and why, just get them back on board and sort the mess later. Who would try to pull someone over the rails/lifelines when underneath is so much easier.

5 - Oui, what happened to point 5??

6 - See No 4

7 - Correct again but only in old school land. In the brave new world there is no thimbles or stuff like that so the fibre lines just pull straight through the holes in the stanchions.

 

Oh.... so expanding on No 7, why would you have solid rails when with one quick swipe of a knife you can have zero rails/lines or anything in the way of dragging someone back on board.

 

Knot bad arguments Idler but many are based on gear and set-ups that are now destined to being Museum exhibits.

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99% of people would use lifelines more to define the edge of their boat than they would for saving their lives. So the height they are is generally irrelevant for most boaters.

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Knotty is right onto it.

 

They are like barbed wire/razor wire fences to low brows or electric fences to horses.

 

What about a Velcro deck (female side) and velcro shoes and gear (male hook side.... lean with that!

 

While talking about leaning... can some one tell Toyota that Catamarans are not :crazy: leaners!!!

 

I bet its satchi and satchi who thought that up :crazy:

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:lol: :lol: ..but thats because they are no good for the purpose for which they are named !!.....which is the point !
They will have still saved more than solid rails would have, what's more they will continue to do so.

 

Solid rails have killed at least one person I know so probably quite a few worldwide. If that dudes boat had soft rails he'd probably be still alive today, maybe missing a leg but he's still be able to go home to his family. Which is why I refused point blank to accept MNZ ruling my barge had to have solid rails. I must have been onto something as they backed down and gave me a specific exemption so I didn't have to have them. That's the same mob who came within 30mins of pulling all my approvals to operate as one of the fire buckets wasn't painted red.

 

One shoe doesn't fit every foot.

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Cant let this one go !

You seem to be justifing a bad system.

First I said where weight didnt matter.

I am sorry that this happened to the person you know, but I simply do not except that what you are saying is true.

They will have still saved more than solid rails would have, what's more they will continue to do so.

And if so, ONLY because there is more of them, not because they are a good idea.

A working barge is a very differant propostion, and most I know of dont have ANY rails. Further they do not roll like a keel boat in an open sea, with no forward motion, in crappy weather.

I would hope that you would not allow your employees to even work in those conditions.

 

1 - Yes they are low but most are used more as a edge marker than saving people falling off.

Why ? even if it is an "edge marker" In most furlers the sail height start is at least 200mm above the "life lines" And cruising boats generaly dont like low fore sails becuase they can drag in the water at high heels, at worst and cut forward viz at best.

 

 

2 - Yeap wire can but then wire is now old school and the rope we use is babies bum smooth but some are using ropes that will act like wire so I suppose it all depends

You just justifyed and then took it away...

Most solid rails are 20 mm and are actualy smooth.

I know of only one boat, and that is right beside me. It is using 12 mm spectra. It is also an older timber boat with custom HIGH staunchions.

 

3 - I've seen about as many bent stanchions as I've seen bent solid rails. Stanchions straighten easier.

The first is just plain crap. You obviously dont fix them. (And when they pull through the deck it is a pain) The second is of course true, but if solid you usualy dont have to fix them (except in a collision, in which case all bets are off)

 

4 - In a MOB who give a sh*t about what where and why, just get them back on board and sort the mess later. Who would try to pull someone over the rails/lifelines when underneath is so much easier.

Of course you do what you do....but that is not an excuse for a bad system. I did not suggest going over, I in fact said under and a suitable gap was important.

The use of a strong upper rail helps heaps in the final MOB retreval. It may be OK if you have 10 boofy guys on deck, but what about a couple cruising and he goes over ? Assuming you are using a halyard for retreival, then once you get to level with the gunnels, you have a snag point. If the turning point is higher then you can bring the MOB to deck level and the set about swinging the MOB in UNDER the ADEQUATELY spaced rail.

5 - Oui, what happened to point 5??

I cant count

 

6 - See No 4

See number four !! And the fact as I said that it gives an OUTBOARD degree of braceable securtiy...What you are going to hang on to a grab rail behind you and pull with the other hand ? Or Sit on your arse with your feet in the scuppers and try to deal with a MOB that is trying to come into the space you already occupy ?

7 - Correct again but only in old school land. In the brave new world there is no thimbles or stuff like that so the fibre lines just pull straight through the holes in the stanchions.

Run that by me again....If there is no thimbles or other obstructions...what are the lashings tied too ?

Or are you now talking about an all spectra run, and then trying to cut that through ?

 

Oh.... so expanding on No 7, why would you have solid rails when with one quick swipe of a knife you can have zero rails/lines or anything in the way of dragging someone back on board.

See 6, perhaps not 5 :eh: maybee 4, possibly 3, 2 is worth a thought, and one may be helpful

 

Knot bad arguments Idler but many are based on gear and set-ups that are now destined to being Museum exhibits.

CRAP ! You may be a modern man, but I live in a real world. Build me some carbon fibre solid rails of the right height for a cruising yacht and I will believe you...

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It seems you are trying to justify big heavy slow boats. You know the boats, they are the only ones to use solid rails.

I'm going with history and real life, both of those say soft lines do do the job. That's why the majority of the world fleet use them.

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