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ScottiE

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Posts posted by ScottiE

    Boating now heavily restricted

    in MarineTalk

    Posted

    YNZ's focus has definitely changed so I'm not sure I entirely agree with you.  Traditionally you are correct but a quick look at the history of constitution shows that since about 2012 YNZ has begun to alter its focus from what's percieved as "just Olympic classes" or racing, to include recreational boating "advocacy" as described on their website.  It's interesting because I think that ISAF may have had quite a bit to do with influencing YNZ's focus in the past.  In the 2006 rule change we had this little gem:

    "To recognise and support ISAF by (c) refraining, and using reasonable endeavours to persuade others within Yachting New Zealand's jurisdiction to refrain, from actions that are inconsistent with ISAF's objects, rules, regulations and decisions."

    wrt to recreational boaties we have these two which look like they came in when the constitution was redrafted 2012 - "To represent and promote the interests of its Members; TO advocate for free access to coastal and inland waters for yachting and boating;" 

    Re-reading Dave A's comment on the 22nd, I think that I was wrong to include YNZ not lobbying, they at least tried to get our case across in some form. "It was disappointing to learn yachting and boating activities will not be permitted at level 3, because Yachting New Zealand have been strongly advocating to Sport New Zealand and the Government on behalf of the sector to have a safe and graduated return to activity."

    The example I put up was flawed and rightly put down.  Perhaps if more of us were willing to be members of YNZ affiliated clubs, YNZ might have more clout to be able to influence SNZ.

     

    • Upvote 1

    Covid-free sailing thread

    in MarineTalk

    Posted

    38 minutes ago, Black Panther said:

    2 I'm almost embarrassed to say it but Angela and I just had a wonderful 4 weeks in the gulf. Hardly any other boats and birds and fish everywhere. 

    Lucky bugger - I've been waiting for that comment!  truely jealous

    1. solo sail round motuhie in 5-8kn of breeze in late Jan - instead of being stuck in the office.

    2. few few days at Ocean Beach motuhie for my lads - its probably their favourite hangout at the moment.

    • Upvote 1

    Boating now heavily restricted

    in MarineTalk

    Posted

    right - I feel responsible for the original post that sent this off on a tangent and so I shall do my utmost to bring it back.  

    Heard today that for a number of weeks now CAA has been working on enabling owners of aircraft to continue to maintain their aircraft, including maintenance flights.  DG of Health has approved this (clearly he now runs the country) even at level 4. 

    There is a framework around how to go about doing this.  So would seem consistent that maintenance of vessels should also be permitted. I would deem that to include being able to run an engine under load "at sea", test running rigging etc. to the owners satisfaction.  MNZ are only looking at commercial operations rather than recreational vessels (there is nothing on their website) and so as usual there's no assistance from them there.  Nobody (and regrettably I'd have to include YNZ in that) is lobbying on recreational vessel owners' behalf to be able to carry out maintenance as far as I can tell.

    discuss!

    Boating now heavily restricted

    in MarineTalk

    Posted

    8 minutes ago, Fish said:

    I just want to clarify, what is it you are advocating we do?

    The way I read your post, are you advocating a 'let it run, survival of the fittest strategy'?

    But I don't want to jump to conclusions. Apologies, no references to marine in my post. 

    No - its a fair question.  It's clearly absolutely vital to protect the vulnerable as much as they themselves will permit (we live with a state funded hospital system so there caveats with that). Yet another person has died in Chch overnight from the Rosewood rest home - that's 10 deaths from that one facility out of country total of 17!  So in that respect we do what ever it takes to look after vulnerable people as much as we can.  If that means state funded holidays or boat trips (see it can be done!), boat trips to holidays on islands, etc etc then so be it. Boating and the sea is a great therapy (have I done enough to pass the moderators!). Close monitoring etc etc.  All these measures come at a significan cost but will pale in comparison the money we are currently borrowing.

    But here's the other problem, and I'll use my own personal circumstances to illustrate.  My father lives in similar facility to Rosewood, he and his fellow residents will fall to this in much the same way.  However until I get this virus, once or twice and develop sufficient anti-bodies, there is no way I'll be able to see Dad again, despite being his EPoA - that's just a fact.  It is irrational because I can tell you that the one thing that people like my father need the most, is the one thing they are being deprived of and that is company and personal contact with people they recognise for comfort.  This goes for anyone with a disability, those with cerabal palsy who visit our office building daily but now can't, or those who are blind who can't get into the institue across the road.  The human cost to the vulnerable is just immense.

    Remember this also, the "let it run, survival of the fitest strategy" is exactly what we do, every year with respect to influenza, with no idea whether this year's influenza will kill 500, 1000, 2000.

    Boating now heavily restricted

    in MarineTalk

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Bad Kitty said:

    This is particularly relevant. Are we going to exist in our own bubble of 4.? million, with incredibly difficult travel both in & out of NZ, and do almost no business with the rest of the world?

    While I don't pretend to have the answers to how we should do this, the future looks pretty bleak for our economy? 

    If we stick to the "zero tolerance" for Wuhan coronavirus in NZ as the PM pivoted to earlier this week, then we have no choice but to exist in our bubble for the foreseeable future.  There will be little exceptions around the fringe - you might be able to take the boat to the Cook Is. for example (mandatory Boating reference), or other Pacific nations that have also implemented the self-imprisonment policy, but there will be no ducking across to LA, or NY for a week's R&R, no quick business trips to HK, KL etc etc.  Nothing unless you are willing to go into mandatory, monitored self-isolation on return. 

    However, despite one of our largest industies (tourism and hospo) being decimated and likely to remain so for some time,  we do have a significant export industry which will need to be allowed to expand.  The stupid restrictions on mining etc should be relaxed (they won't while this current govt. is in "power").  Our construction industry will also pick up and carry on pretty much as before by the time where in L2 or 1.  So we are in better shape than a lot of other countries. 

    But we're all going to get this virus (15% of greater NY already have had it) eventually. It will be a bit like a nasty year of influenza and perhaps 0.1% of the pop will die - 5000 people - maybe more maybe less (again watch this).  We might spread that over a year or three and our current PM can then think she's operated in a manner that's "kind" rather than "weak".  I wish I could draw cartoons - picture a gorrila (NZ not JA, that would be unkind!) having locked himself in his cage, thrown away the key, with a pile of sugar cane just out of reach.

    Boating now heavily restricted

    in MarineTalk

    Posted

    Here’s my response to Fish’s post yesterday evening.  My apologies to all in advance.

    On 22/04/2020 at 9:18 PM, Fish said:

    Agree the govt has form for changing its mind on a whim, but in this context I don't have a problem with it. They are having to make decisions with massive ramifications very quickly and on limited facts. The corollary of what you are saying, is you would want the govt to get every detail perfect before announcing a decision. This happens often in local govt, is called paralysis by analysis. It is where nothing ever gets decided, nothing ever gets done, and the can is kicked down the road while the problem persists. In this context (covid 19) any decision is better than none. Is the decision perfect? No, but even half right is 50% more than nothing.

    As for the sport and recreation thing, that is not a priority at L3. The economy and our health are. There are things I want to buy (and a few things I need to buy) and while I can phone the shops, they aren't allowed to sell it to me. Hopefully that can happen at L3.

     

    With respect, you put up a series of straw man arguments in this paragraph but I’ll just respond to the one that is actually related to my original post,

    The corollary of what I wrote is not what you posit.  Rather, the decision of what “recreation should look like” was left largely to SportNZ who in turn, we are told by YNZ (whom I have no reason to doubt) have ben consulting with sporting bodies and produced this (SNZ on WCV). Now I’m not interested in the details so much as the fact that this government bureaucracy (SNZ), that, let’s be honest, has had nothing more pressing to do in the 3 ½ weeks leading up to it’s release can then simply change its content “on a whim” when that “whim” is nothing more than a response to MSM and social media – as borne out today regarding “hunting”.  As far as I’m concerned that demonstrates that the decision making is driven by politics and not by logic which was my original point.  If health or the economy rather than recreation are still the “priority” in L3 then I would happily argue there should be no change to the current limits on recreation, by definition.  And so again, and change is political rather than logical.  You might not have a problem with that or disagree with my view – that’s your right.

    As to “In this context (covid 19) any decision is better than none. Is the decision perfect? No, but even half right is 50% more than nothing.” – I really don’t know what to say other than, just “wow!” 

    On 22/04/2020 at 9:18 PM, Fish said:

    All going well, L3 will only last 2 weeks, and we can get back to it. But this constant bitching about what we can't do recreation wise at L3 is starting to get really boring. Recreation will come at L2, in the mean time there are a few of us that would like to secure our jobs and knock off this virus, so it doesn't keep coming back every couple of months for the next 5 years. As a note, the estimated time to achieve herd immunity is 5 years in many countries, so you'd have flare ups and lock downs with no notice ongoing for years, with all the associated damage and cost to the economy. There is an underlying reason why its is the least cost option long term to stay locked down now.

    Just interested, can any of you guys calling for looser requirements explain the concept of exponential growth? I'd really like to know if you understand that?

    With respect, most of what you’ve written is not borne out by experience or data.  I don’t know where you get “5 years from” for the dreaded “herd immunity” but the one country that has completely bucked the trend, Sweden, expects to have “it” in weeks  - see here (Sweden herd immunity). I would encourage anyone with ½ an hour to watch the embedded interview.  For BP’s benefit, the man being interviewed is Prof. Johan Giesek, arguably one the most respected epidemiologists on the planet – he humbly lists is credentials at the beginning.  It’s sobering, but factualy true.  Some countries make take longer but I'm sure you'll agree that is manufactured.

    And so I put it to you that our current plan in all likelihood will be one of the most costly options we could have taken and it will only take us longer to get there.  Unless of course we isolate ourselves from the rest until someone develops a vaccine, which for a coronavirusehas happened, never in modern history (see SARS and MERS).  Now you might not agree with this assertion, that's your right but as Prof. Giesek suggests, "let's talk about this again in a year".  But the thing with "exponentials", in reference to naturally occuring growth systems, is they tend to be useful in describing the initial growth,  and end decay, the bit in the middle tends to be linear, with time (just the fourth dimensio of space).  Someone should remind Prof. Hendy of that, unless he does know but has deliberately chosen to leave this off his clarvoyancy, err sorry, prediction models.

    So I would appreciate it very much if you could cite your sources for the “herd immunity in 5 years” and that what we are doing is the “least cost option”.  Happy for you to private post – thanks.

     

    • Upvote 2

    Boating now heavily restricted

    in MarineTalk

    Posted

    2 hours ago, erice said:

    and here they say kayaking is out under level 3

    Kayaking, like most other water-based activities, is not permitted at alert level 3 or 4 because there is an increased risk of COVID-19 being spread if participants require search and rescue services.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/04/i-ve-been-a-dick-dr-lance-o-sullivan-admits-coronavirus-lockdown-breach-hypocrisy.html

    which doesn't appear to match some other sources...

    The official information still currently advises that kayaking (and windsurfing) is permitted in Level 3.  However as David Abercrombie points out in his update that Deep Purple posted, the gummit is still working on things and that at time he published "It had previously been indicated windsurfing would be allowed but this is probably now not the case due to safety concerns.".  His statement "suggests" he may know more than is letting on especially when he goes on to say "I work very closely with Sport New Zealand and government advisory groups as we look at how sport can return under the various alert levels."  

    This Gummit has form in changing its mind on a whim so who knows what will and will not be allowed by Monday.  There is a complete disconnect in logic in not allowing most recreation level sporting activities to continue.

    Boating now heavily restricted

    in MarineTalk

    Posted

    1 hour ago, marinheiro said:

    I understand the majority/all of these patient transfers were residents from Waiheke.  Coastguard were called to do this as Deodar is out of the water and Lion has an ambulance bay.  

    if it's true (and I want confirmation from CG themselves) then it's f'ing out of order.  I've had the police doing slow passes up the river pretty much every f'ing day.  They're too busy looking out for errant dog walkers and clandestine paddleboarders to deal with actual sick people and help them to hospital?

    Boating now heavily restricted

    in MarineTalk

    Posted

    3 hours ago, wheels said:

    The PM made it very clear in her speech yesterday that any on water activity is still banned, anything done on/from the shore is ok.

    PM say all sorts of s**t that then changes 24 hours later so unless it's formally published, like everything else she's ever said since getting into power I place no credibility on the words that come out of her mouth.

    • Upvote 2

    Boating now heavily restricted

    in MarineTalk

    Posted

    Muppets NZ must be right up there with S**tless NZ.  

    So you can go for a windsurf (presuambly because its got that other "s" word in it) but you can't go for a sail. 

    I'm tellin' ya - we got do a whip round and get that guy Cummings down here from England!

    Boating now heavily restricted

    in MarineTalk

    Posted

    1 hour ago, banaari said:

    Damn. It's explicit: "Hunting, boating, yachting and any team sports or training are not allowed."

    https://covid19.govt.nz/alert-system/alert-level-3/#workers-and-businesses

    typical  nonsense

    you can drive 45mins to go for a swim at the beach - you can't drive to the bach

    you can go for a surf - you can't go for a yacht - what about a windsurf or kiteboard?

    You can have multiple person to person contact in a supermarket - you can't go to your local bike shop.

    Just an arbitary set of rules based around no scientific data. Written by some civil service authoritarian beaurocrats in MBIE who think their job is an essential service - working out (after them at the top of the list) who is an essential service and who can go to the wall. Dumb. Go check out Taiwan's view on all this. 

    • Upvote 3

    Covid 19 and liveaboards

    in MarineTalk

    Posted

    57 minutes ago, Fish said:

    I could get to a dozen live aboards up the Weiti alone without even trying, the Stillwater area has a number, most of whom are very discrete, in addition to the actual Weiti ones.

    And that is one inlet in the Auckland area. Multiple that by the number of discrete inlets and quiet backwaters around the place. Live aboards aren't just in marinas and on formal moorings. There is a wide range of personalities, boats, locations and reasons for living aboard. Many prefer to stay below the radar...

    I counted over 20 cars in the carpark at PYBC day before yesterday and I reckon there would be 30'sh boats that are "liveabords"

    Boating now heavily restricted

    in MarineTalk

    Posted

    57 minutes ago, Sailing NZ said:

    But seriously...

    The policing if boaties will require all police maritime resources and coastguard vessels to be active...

     

    Which means more people on the water being exposed  ...

    I think they are after the plonkers on hjet skis, kite surfers, fizz boats and wakas with no life jackets..

    Seriously?

    if you’d listened to, or read anything properly, you would know that the police don’t intend to do anything different other than their normal patrols, which are just as much about protecting vacant private property as lockdown compliance.  These new “instructions” are actually a result of a new Public Health Order that AB issued yesterday.  By doing this, he is able, by his legislated power, to provide the police the authority to enforce this order to stay at home whenever practicable.  Ie. they can now ask you to go home, if you don’t, they can now arrest you, fine you, and then drop you home. Previously they couldn’t without declaring that they suspected you have The Wuhan Coronavirus which, as you can imagine, has a far worse set of repercussions.

    seriously 

     

    Covid 19 and liveaboards

    in MarineTalk

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Island Time said:

    I'd also dispute what the source of that article says - I have a mate out there who reckons everyone hes seen has been well behaved. To many different stories to know what's real though....

    Agreed.  The typical MSM are no longer interested in spending time verifiying stories or sources because it’s more important to publish a sensational story and move on to the next disaster.  That culture pervades our own MO. I’ve been trying really hard since the beginning of last year to correct my own behaviour, partially successfully (or perhaps still failing depending on whether your an optimist or a realist!)

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