smithy09
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Posts posted by smithy09
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Righto, had the inspector from Electra Safe visit today. Before we got on the boat, I told him that I had no AC equipment installed, to which his reply was "well you don't need an EWOF then". However, then we got talking about battery chargers and how the power was connected to the charger. He said that an extension cord coming into the boat was no longer legal and that I must install:
- a plug box in a suitable location, that will accept the "round pin" electrical plugs (female on the boat, obviously)
- hard wired appropriate cabling from there to a (suggested) double plug inside the boat
- that circuit to have a specific type of RCD protector (I don't recall the exact acronym, think it was 16A anyway)
- the AC wiring to be routed separately from the DC
I can then plug the battery charger in to that, and have an additional plug to run the vacuum cleaner off, or computer etc.
The in-boat electrical work must have a Code of Compliance cert, then be inspected by an inspector for the EWOF.
He made two points:
- these regulations are constantly being "improved"
- the regulations vary depending on what equipment is used in what location, as in outside/inside, close to sink, able to be accessed easily etc etc.
He wasn't interested in the 12V at all.
Anyone know a reasonable sparky who knows boats?
Yup!! This seems very reasonable to me. My current installation is pretty much exactly this and would comply. However this does not comply with NZ 3004.2 which covers ewofs for boats. It's total bollocks and just a paperwork/bureaucracy nightmare. My comments regarding the inspector you get seem well founded.
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Hahahaha. Karma!!
I had a run in with one of their tosser operators on the way back to Westhaven a few weeks ago in the Masrhall. Basically he was mucking around at around 2-3 knots over Bayswater way among the moorings. No idea what he was up to then he decided to head straight at me from my starboard side and basically tracked me doing 2-3 knots while I was doing 7 knots. By the time it was clear he was set on continuing his course I would have had to do a 360 to avoid him so, as we both had eye contact, I just gave a wave and continued. I then got a mouthful of "Did I realise I had to give way?" FFS. He was one guy in the boat and had to alter course about 10 degrees. He got the appropriate answer. Whilst being technically correct, he was a real tosser about it all, and then I noted he was heading in to where the ferries berth, so had to alter course anyway!! Shame they don't know about depths as well as they know their Col Regs!
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Hi IT. OK, but how does this make my system safer? Why do I need an earth to seawater? Why do I need to connect my DC bus negative to ground. What earthly use is this?
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Smithy,
that is how standards work, they are not applied or retrospective unless prescribed by legislation, and in the case of AS 3004.2 it is only referenced by the regulations for new conectable installations
The preamble in C10 is in relation to new installations covered by this revision of the standard.
Furthermore the preface of AS 2004.2 (2008) further acknowlleges that it only covers new installations and is not retrospective, and note the reference to legislation
This Standard may be applied through legislative requirement, from a date to be set by the
relevant regulating authority. If work on an installation was commenced before publication of this edition, the relevant regulatory authority or electricity distributor may grant permission for the installation to be completed under AS/NZS 3004:2002.
Are you an electrical inspector marinheiro? You seem very well informed.
If what you are saying is the case, ie that the standards do not apply 100% to existing installations, then what guidelines are the inspectors following? I just don't get it. If I want an ewof, does my boat need to be externally earthed to the seawater, or is the electrical earth connected to the marina via the lead sufficient? Do all exposed metal parts need to be earthed? As there is nothing hard wired, just a battery charger and a dehumifier running off a portable box with an RCD/MCB in it, how is this installation unsafe?
It all seems a bit like YNZ Cat 2 inspections, in that it really depends on who the inspector is, not how safe the boat is..
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See Clause 60 of the regs which references both AS3000 & AS3004.2, noting reference to "conectable installation".
Note also clause 3, where the regulations do not apply, which says pleasure craft other than those with connectable installations.
The C.10 check list from AS 3004.2 is an installation check list, C.11 is the testing checklist and basically deals with the AC side and earthing/bonding
In respect of retrospectivity C.3 of AS3004.2 states
NOTE: Existing installations will have been designed and installed to conform to legislative
requirements applicable at the time of their design and erection and may have been subsequently repaired using methods that were acceptable when the installation was originally installed. This does not necessarily mean that they are unsafe provided that the installation and repair methods satisfy the fundamental safety principles of Part 1 of AS/NZS 3000:2007.
So the installation check list can only be applied to new installations under the current standard and similarly for the testing requirements.
This is quite an interpretation. C10 reads:
C10.1 General
This section details requirements for basic visual inspection of an electrical installation toconfirm that the installation remains in good repair and does not exhibit indications ofmisuse or damage. This inspection does not include any electrical testing.This would seem to indicate ongoing visual inspection, not just new installations.My main problem is that a lot of us just run an extension cord with a battery charger and dehumidifier running off it. I can understand the need for testing the lead, but I do not understand the need for an eWOF and therefore the need for the boat to have an AC earth point and all that that entails. How does this make the boat safe? Many of us have fitted the portable connection boxes sold by the marinas a few years ago as well. These add an RCD/MCB between the socket and the marina connection which also has an RCD. Surely this is sufficient to cover both short circuit faults and faults that somehow make the body of the appliance live??It seems that much is left to interpretation.. -
Smithy, as I mentioned previously AS3004.2 is only referenced in the Regs for Prescribed Electrical Work, ie greater than 50V.
On the DC side it is only a guideline, not mandatory.
If that is the case, which standard are we complying with for the ewof? NZ 3000 doesn't cover it and the check list is pretty clear!
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As I am now days from wiring my boat thus - all 12V powered off 2 x 100wt panels and 2 x 200ahr LIFePO batteries in a sealed battery box designed to stay dry even if I have a couple of feet of water inside or are upside down. The whole electrical system is designed and being installed to continue to function right up to, and possibly a bit after, the point I'll be saying 'All hope is lost, it's into the raft time'.
I was thinking of fitting a 1000W inverter to get 240V for charging 18V power tool batteries and/or I will have a 1kva inverter genny but zero ability to connect shore power into the hard wired boat system. If I need shore power it will have to be a lead connected direct to whatever needs it.
Please tell me this crap doesn't apply to me.
It applies to you. You are plugging into shorepower, therefore according to the Marinas you need an eWof.
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We had an Electrical inspector at Sandspit last week checking leads and EWOFs for anyone who made the request.
I asked him 2 questions in relation to some of the contentious issues
1. Is the current standard retrospective, ie do our older boats have to be revised to meet the current requirements? Answer - the standard is not retrospective, only requirement (and this is the tricky one) the installation should be "safe"
2. Is there any basis for inspectors making an EWOF inspection to check the DC as well as the AC system? Answer - no. The EWOF only covers prescribed electrical work (ie >50V) as defined by the electrical regulations.
It was interesting talking to him to hear he found some AC installation problems, even on brand name Australian boats.
If this is the case then he is not following the standard which is quite clear as to the tests that should be completed. I have attached the testing side of things from the 2008 standard. The layout is not 100% correct as I couldn't be bothered editing the whole thing. From here it is clear that the EWof does indeed cover the DC circuits on the boat as well.. Also interesting is the scope of the standard which states:
This Part of AS/NZS 3004 specifies requirements for the design, construction and
installation of electrical systems in recreational boats that have a length of up to 50 m, and
are designed for use on inland waters or at sea. It is not intended to apply to small boats
equipped with a battery supplying circuits for engine starting and navigation lighting only
that are recharged from an inboard or outboard engine driven alternator.
This would seem to indicate that the standard is indeed aimed at boats with a hard wired AC system built in, and not boats that have an extension cord running a battery charger and dehumidifier...
It seems that the Marina association have taken it upon themselves, maybe through pressure from worksafe, to impose this standard on us. What's more, it appears that the electrical inspectors are either not familiar with the standard, or simply turn a blind eye to it all. If this is the case, what do they want? Are they going to ignore the external earth bonding requirements?
What a can of worms...
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Interesting smithy. Is there any chance there has been a revision?? Because it certainly used to. And as a result, when I rewired my own boat, I used ring terminals because of that.
It says you can use rings, spades or terminals. No soldered joints, no bare wire ends. Pretty easy..
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I think everyone has answered Dtwo's question. I wasn't totally clear on some points in it, so I will answer my own answer just in case. If you are wanting to connect anything to the shore power, you need a eWOF. If you don't connect to shore power, you don't need an eWOF.
I have been harping on about this eWOF business since it's inception. I see a big issue with Insurance if they ever got nasty and we all know that they are fast becoming nasty.
Technically, under the rules, because the AC is earthed to the Boat and the DC system is grounded, then they are called a "bonded" system. This means that the DC MUST also be inspected. This is utterly ridiculous in my opinion. And I know of heaps of boats that would never pass because the DC system must be installed to survey requirements. For instance, This even means that all terminal connections have to be captive ring terminals. I bet very few of you have those. So technically, very few boats are EVER going to pass. Let alone the Underwater bonding plates that are mega expensive, because they re cintered bronze and I bet most racers won't want something like that.
As already said above, some inspectors are turning a deaf ear and blind eye to this. My question that no one has ever been able to answer me is, if a Boat ever catches fire and it was proven to be a fault in the DC system, the Insurance company is going to knock on the door of Mr Inspector and ask why the wire that should have been inspected and passed as a ring terminal suddenly became a spade terminal or open ring terminal or no terminal at all and would this mean the Insurance company now has one of those nasty little things we call a Null and Void Policy???????
I really truly believe this electrical thing needs to be taken to a higher power and at the very least, the DC system should be removed from eWOF requirements. It is ridiculous. I can not see any need what so ever. So why do we have it?? Because the Regs were never written for NZ. They have been cut and pasted from Oz and that most likely came from something else anyway. Maybe the US. Does Colregs cover electrical??? We need as a collective voice to take this further. Because I am pretty sure that my above warning about an insurance company will one day ring true
Hi Wheels. I don't think you are correct here. I have a copy of the standard and nowhere does it say that you require ring terminals or need to comply with an installation to survey standards. There is a big list of items that need to be ticked off, and the DC system does need to pass as well, but I have never seen anything like you are suggesting. What I understand inspectors are currently doing is turning a blind eye to many of the items that should be checked.. You are correct that the marinas are over reaching their authority and becoming very heavy handed, with no good reason, and no return in added safety for boats that simply have a battery charger and dehumidifier fitted. As long as these run through a safe lead with a suitable RCD/breaker fitted, there should be no problem. The standard concerned is AS/NZ 3004 Part 2. I might have to buy part 1 as well as that governs Marinas.. I wonder if Westhaven complies??
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Thanks all, we will be living on the boat so I will have the battery charger connected.
I have made an appointment with Electra-Safe at $105 + GST per hour, will let you know what happens.
Good luck. I watch with interest to see what they recommend!
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We will be moving in to Hobsonville for a brief period shortly. They require an EWOF - "NON-NEGOTIABLE" in their charming guide. I don't have a problem with a desire for safety, BUT - I don't think I require an EWOF.
My boat is all 12V, with a portable battery charger for marina life. Can anyone advise for certain if an EWOF is required (my reading of the applicable standards, those that are accessible anyway, says that 12V is not relevant to those standards)?
Can anyone recommend a sensible EWOF inspector in Auckland, conversant with boats? Is there one?
What a world class s%$t fight this stuff is. How to remove the "pleasure" from boating.
Yes it's a joke.
Even the relevant NZ standard does not require it, and from talks I have had with electrical service providers, the inspectors are turning a blind eye to many of the requirements on the checklist that comes with the standard. If this is the case, why bother? Also, as part of the standard you are required to bond your boat (exposed metal parts and an underwater grounding plate) to the marina Earth. With this in mind, do the Marinas have built in earth monitoring equipment? If the boat next door is sinking a small current into its earth, and therefore the marina earth, and therefore my earth, does the Marina know? Before you ask about RCDs, they are set to go off when a fault current threshold is reached. Generally 40mA. They do not protect your underwater metal appendages!! So if your earthed yacht is connected to the marina and sitting at say 24V, what do you think this will do to the parts immersed in seawater??
The marinas even have the arrogance to put at the bottom of the flier advising that we need an eWOF that "We know nothing about electrical installations so will not enter into technical arguments regarding eWOFs" or something along those lines. The arrogance is amazing..
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well when they are asking please go to such and such site to support us, i think of that as begging.
when you are 20 years old you are never going to learn what a beautiful thing it is to put in a few decades to buy something of value. like he did saving up for the first boat, so props to him. on the flip side i guess she is young and of the generation that want it now. i just think its a bit tacky, but hey if people wanna pay to see someone else motosail, i guess thats their right.
No. Begging is wanting something for nothing. These guys give you the videos in return. You are funding them to continue producing the videos. There is a heap of work in the videos so they are not wanting money for doing nothing. If the Paetron guys are prepared to pay for this, then I consider it a win-win situation. When I lived on board in the Med for 3 years, I wrote articles and sold them to the UK yachting periodicals. Helped the bank balance. I didn't consider this begging, and I also reckon that their videos are much more work than the articles I wrote. They put a heap of effort into their work. And no I don't support them financially, just watch the vids..
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To be honest Im less interested in the sailing technicality and speed than I am the journey, if that makes sense. So comfort and ease to sail take a much higher priority than speed and ability. I guess MotoSailer is more SailerMoto as I dont want to lose the ability to capture sailing and just be a glorified powerboat with a sail. Are all benetaus just moto sailers?
Haha, no comments on peoples money making adventure partnersThat $330k or whatever, is that just youtube or does it include their other begging website system?
The $330K was total income from U tube and Paetron. I wouldn't call it begging. You get a product for your money, just depends if you're interested enough. They produce good videos that take a lot of work. Personally I would rather enjoy the trip than spend all that time filming it but they are young and motivated and doing well. Hats off to them.
My experience with Euro boats is that some of them go real well upwind. Try getting past Outrageous Fortune (Beneteau) upwind in a blow! Kiwi boats tend to be faster downwind. It is really hard to beat the accommodation and interior on the Bendy boats and Jeaneaus. Not many Kiwi boats come close.
If you like wheels, go for twin wheels. Easy walk through but you can still get outboard to steer. Maybe not quite as sensitive as a tiller but pretty close..
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saw something last week about the top 10 money making sailing blogs
vagabonde was top at 330k plus per episode, delos second 250 odd k , so they should be able to afford that new Cat. There are heaps trying to bo the same thing and the average earned is about $50 per episode.
I don,t worry to much about what boat I will buy next , just see whats available and is good value, there is way more boats for sale than there is buyers and always will be.
Not quite right there. It was $330K per annum, and Delos $250K per ANNUM. Jeeze if it was per episode, I'd be learning video editing real fast...
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Good onya Shane!
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I Agree with Duty Free. The recent Westhaven rent increase was the last straw for me and The Marshall will be going up for sale shortly. The overheads in owning and racing a 40ft keeler are just too high for this fella. Add in all the ridiculous hoops that you have to jump through (electrical WOF, Cat 2 changes, etc etc) it's just too much. And then to top it off, go for a shower in the toilet block near B pier, and there is 1 shower only. Want hot water with that? Put $2 in the machine. When you're paying $920 a month you expect a little better. Rip off!
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Tried to load Photos but it wouldn't have it..
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Just off Tolaga Bay. Titanium just in Front, and the Spy in front a few miles. Truxton behind now. Not Marshall weather but wind has dropped to about 15 knots and the horrendous lumpy waves have abated a bit. Hope it doesn't swing North when we round East Cape!!
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I expect a lot of boats on the market soon! Just too expensive!
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I have done the Canal du Midi from Bordeaux to Sete (enter via the Gironde river in the Atlantic and exit in the Med) and also the Rhone river, then Canal du L'Est to the Moselle, Mosel, then into the Rhine, exit in Holland. The canal and river system in France was 100% free in the 80s. Not sure now. All the locks are operated by retired civil servants. Their retirement is to get the Lock keeper's house for free, and in return they operate the lock. Some of these guys were magic. Some were miserable! The whole experience was awesome, and such a nice way to travel. I did it in a Dufour 29 which drew 1.6 metres, the maximum for most of the canals. We took the mast down in Bordeaux then raised it again in Sete.
There was a motorcycle mate called Dick Waterer who did it about 3-4 years ago in a canal boat he bought in Holland. Put a motorbike on the deck and lifted off with a crane. He would be good to track down for advice. Great way to see some amazing scenery. You can go all the way to Berlin if you want!! I can try to get ahold of Dick if you like? PM me.
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I'm gutted for him. I hope he can get some tail winds for the last Jury rig sail to the finish.. He has tried so hard and overcome obstacle after obstacle, now this!
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Allo allo allo, what's all this then... http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11798664
Beat me to it. No surprises. This should result in a few dismissals from YNZ really. $800K down the tubes but they won't fund our windsurfers to go to Rio?? WTF?? Sorry, but this is bad news..
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A comment worth mentioning here. Latly we have noticed many trying to power set the new gen anchors to fast. At about 1.5 to 2 kts your anchor is flying like a kite not even on the sea bed. Let the boat lay back using the wind or a small squirt of backwards. Once you feel the anchor bite then apply power to set and or check.
I'll back that up! The Wa kindly bought me a new gen anchor from KM for Christmas to replace our old Manson plough. With the Manson I used to reverse at 1-2 knots and it would dig in. I tried that with the Excel and we just kept on dragging. Tried it 3 times, then just slowed right down to maybe 1/2 knot backwards and it dug in hard and didn't move. Took a bit of a change in technique alright! Held well once it set though.
Marina eWof requirements
in MarineTalk
Posted
Hi Marinheiro. Thanks for the detailed answer. You certainly have studied hard. Hats off to you! ABYC standards do not apply to us, so they are out. The reason for earthing that you give is not relevant at all for portable appliances and an extension lead. Any short or leakage of current to earth whether it is via the case of trhe appliance, or via my body, is protected by dual RCDs, one on the dock and one in my boat. The earth from the dock is also connected through to my appliances, so why do I need to earth my boat? What you say would be quite correct if I had a hard wired system through the boat, where a wire could fray and say touch a chainplate or metal object, but that is not the case.. Interesting for sure to discuss these things!!