clive/tigre

[Guest]

Hi Clive,Tony/ Slipstream Gulf Tige Opua , sorry to hear about your your mishap,been to the yard you will fix her.Your not hurt only your pride mybe & that is all that matters you live to fight again,as you said she should have handled it you know what you did so take no notice of some sh*t remarks posted here I,m sure you will not do it again.My gulf tiger has been to Dunedin & back plus many trips in a lot worst than that.If you need any help from up here at Opua let me know I will do what I can.I used to crew at the MYCNZ club in the late 60 &70 we used to get the same dumb remarks back then about us.

PS, I posted a reply to Brucey that went wrong somewhere,Not nice Brucy.

[johnk 0]

Slipstream

sorry but you are only partly right

this time in the conditions Clive was rescued uninjured, but he did put a lot of people at risk unecessarily ( the coastgurd crews and helicopter crew and those friends who went to help) and caused a lot of inconvienience

 

Brucey might not deliver the message appropriately in your view but you cant ignore certain facts

 

9 out of 10 multis elected to stay in the BOI,(as did most of the keelboats)

the wind was forecast at 25 gusting 35 and while at the time it was lower it peaked higher later in the day and the forecast for further down the coats was less enticing (Tutukaka was peaking at 40+ knots)

an 8.5 cat is not designed to be sailed solo in that wind strenght in coastal waters, sorry but they are a harbour racer that can race coastally in mid range breeze/sea conditions

 

my final comment on this is that the outcome could have been far worse , loss of boat or life(s) and when the % chance of that happening gets up a bit because of the weather perhaps it is wiser to sit it out and wait

 

Clives safe rescue and the return of Tigre (albeit damaged) does not make this ok , this was avoidable and remember it was avoided by the 90% of the multi fleet

[Clive 13]

Ok. I am getting hammered here for the forecast. May I remind you that I did not go out in 35 knots of wind.

The forecast when I got up at 04:00: was 20/35 in the morning rough seas dropping to 20 in the morning with moderate seas and then getting back up to 20/35 in the evening.

 

Here was my plan.

 

Get up early to see if the window that was forecast (20 knots) had arrived. If it had my plan was to stick my nose out and see what it was like around the corner.

If it was Ok then I could continue to Tuts - making sure that the wind was not blowing it's tits off at Tuts as well.

 

I got up at 4am and it was 19 peak and 11 avg in the BOI. I thought Yep I'll go and take a look as the window had arrived.

 

I was not in big seas or in winds over 20 knots and I was in still in the shelter of the cape. I was West of Deep Water Cove when I capsized.

 

In my opinion I made a bad judgment in sailing under the Jib only rather than a fully reefed main with no jib. I had been sailing quite comfortably and thought I was under-canvassed enough to be in cruise mode as my intention was to slow the boat down and sail extremely conservatively - hence sailing under the small self tacking jib only. - The main was still on the boom and in it's cover.

 

Steering by the tiller extension was also another error. I usually hold the tiller directly as I have a better, more direct response to steering.

I got hit by a gust and trying to push the tiller extension and blow the jib at the same time was too slow.The wind blew my bow down and took me over before I had chance to steer out of it. The jib was blown but it was too late. At the point of no return I tried to climb over the side but there was nothing to hold onto and my tether was also too short. The boat came down on top of me.

On reflection had I been sailing under a fully reefed main and no jib the wind would have luffed me up instead of bearing me away.

 

I did not capsize due to 35 knot winds or big seas. I capsized due to a sailing error.

 

I do regret the inconvenience I have caused and believe me I certainly wish it had been different.

[Grinna 2]

Don't worry Clive, the experts who weren't there and don't have any information can tell you exactly what you did wrong .... just like they did with a certain Beneteau on its way south from Fiji.

 

Sorry to see Tigre in a bit of a state like that but glad to hear you're OK. Obviously not what you intended to have happen at all. Hope you're able to sort her out and get her going again.

[Guest]

Clive - What was the apparent wind angle at the time?

[Clive 13]

Clive - What was the apparent wind angle at the time?

 

I was on a beat slightly cracked off.

[Guest]

the amount of moralising and pontification from on high re Tigre's misfortune is very wierd and in some cases the old addage about people in glass houses springs to mind!!

 

Re the forexcasting Clive is 100% correct, and if you looked at the forecasting in the days prior, if you were looking for a window then Sunday was maybe a day to move, or wait until tuesday. I suspect Clive was hooked into the inshore forecasting, the coastal forecasts on Saturday afternoon were starting to talk about alot of breeze but not until later Sunday afternoon and into Sunday night

 

The situation cahnged from the earlier forecasts and the low arrived earlier than originally forecast and it also altered track a little and landed directly on North Cape.

 

the subsequent forecasts and actual conditions that were experinced on Sunday afternoon and Sunday night were far more severe than was forecasted on Friady and Saturday.

 

the real breeze didn't build until late Sunday morning and then snotted for the next 36 hours but as Clive reports the actual conditions at the time of his problems were not extreme.

 

Here we have a guy who took precautions, got himself up at 0400hr, looked out eh window to confirm the forecast he had, (he was too early for the 0533hrs foreacst), put on a dry suit, wetweaterh gear, life jacket, personal epiirb and went out in the bay to have a further look at conditions, made an error....who hasn't done that? ...and then things went tits up.

 

The conditions for resuers were hardly life threatening, the coastguard were presumably out on the water, the Helo guys got a cjance to stretch their legs in a real but pretty benign rescue...the photos on this site are hardly storm conditions in fact look very nice...Clive has taken it all on the chin, appologised to all and sundry, been effusive in his praise and thanks...where is the problem?

 

What I would like to know is why was he in the water for so long?

[Guest]

Agree with Grinna. I don't see a loose unit 'asking for it' more than I see a sh*t happens and a massive learning experience.

 

And big ups for posting what you have Clive, I learnt something I'll now know to be aware of should I ever be in a similar situation.

 

And agree with Marsh now also.

[Guest]

incidentally, if you want to see some rapid changing forecasts watch what happens with the forecasting for this weekend...currently they are talking 15kts SW for friday through Sunday...keep an eye out for some real wind Saturday

[Guest]

Don't know how it would work on a multi, but on leaning boats when I get down to only one sail it's the main if the wind is forward of the beam, the jib if it is aft - any comments?

[johnk 0]

Sorry but i have got to make a couple of comments and i was there

 

Clive , there is no way this was the forecasts fault,

even with the forecast did you think ahead to where you going to be when the breeze got back up in the afternoon, i suspect somehwere off tutukaka or bream bay if you carried on or brett if you had returned

the metservice reader in the inner BOI was on Moturoa island ( not sure where it is now) but that is the inner bay , when we came out to the Red Head in the genesis the wind and sea was ok in the lee of the islands , but looking outside the Read Head it was very different. we sat in 20+ knots in a sheltered bay looking at some fairly big seas and i suspect out by and past Brett the wind and sea was worse again

that breeze had been up and down all day on the race course over that day we had seen as low as 9 and as high as 32 , that was the nature of the breeze, gusty and frontal

 

marshy, you were not out there, nor did you talk with the coastguard guys , i was and i did, just so you know

firstly the conditions were bad enough when the chopper picked up Clive they did not want to send the helicopter crew down again to turn the epirb off after he was back on board

the coast guard also didnt want to get on the boat to turn off the epirb and trust me they didnt enjoy the 3 hour tow to the Red Head where it was finally turned off

the photos are all from the very inner bay , in fact they are off russell or in the marina

and as for the why did it take so long,that is just a cheap shot, just so you know we dont have a rescue helicopter at your beck and call, i think it had to be scrambled and come from whangarei

 

i was there throughout and i have the utmost respect for Clive taking this on the chin but

 

it was an uwise call to leave in those conditons and with that forecast

it was unwise to leave single handed

it was unwise to rely on a very small gap in the forecast

it was very bold almost arrogant to leave when all around were saying do not

but most of all when no other multi left or planned to that had to be some clue

 

knot me how would you describe someone who failed to listen to advice of others , many with much more experience on that part of the coast and choose to interpret the forecast in an overly optimistic way the likely weather

 

dont get me wrong a part of me has slight admiration for what clive tried to do but the whole thing could have been avoided by slightly better assessment of the facts before departing

[Marshy 30]

marshy, you were not out there, nor did you talk with the coastguard guys , i was and i did.

 

Not me JK, Different person (Marsh not me) making those calls, I tend to agree that the forecast wasnt flash, I just didnt like the bagging that the first person called Clive. I agree with the other points thought that it wasnt looking flash to go in that stuff and think Clive has learnt a pretty good lesson here. Good work for getting out there and helping JK, It is as TimW says great to see the Multi guys how they get amongst it and help each other out in situations. Good work

[Clive 13]

Sorry but i have got to make a couple of comments and i was there

 

Clive , there is no way this was the forecasts fault,

 

Ok I really don't know what to say here .... At no time have I ever blamed the forecast. I find it really hard to understand how that could have been taken from what I have written or said. The forecast was correct.

 

even with the forecast did you think ahead to where you going to be when the breeze got back up in the afternoon, i suspect somehwere off tutukaka or bream bay if you carried on or brett if you had returned

 

Plan was to take a look. If it was bad or if the new forecast was bad then I would turn around and head to Opua. BUT at least I would have known and tried! If it was bad the boat was going to Opua anyway.

 

 

marshy, you were not out there, nor did you talk with the coastguard guys , i was and i did, just so you know

firstly the conditions were bad enough when the chopper picked up Clive they did not want to send the helicopter crew down again to turn the epirb off after he was back on board

 

Sorry mate I was on the helicopter with the headphones on and a mike listening and hearing everything. This is not the reason why they did not send anyone back down. We could see the CG boat heading out to Tigre. There was also a Yacht heading out to.

 

So how can I say this...

 

IT WAS NOT THE FAULT OF ANYONE BUT MYSELF!

AND

I WAS IN CONDITIONS THAT HAD I SAILED PROPERLY AND BEEN ON THE BALL SHE WOULD HAVE NEVER GONE OVER!

[johnk 0]

Clive

fair enough maybe i have misunderstood your first sentence " I am getting hammered here for the forecast", i took that as some form of critcism of the forecast maybe wrongly if so sorry

 

Clive if the sea had been benign the helicopter crew could have gone back down or the coastguard could have climbed on board and turned the epirb off, the point is it wasnt calm however my frustration is not at you it is at Marsh's comment that the coastguard wouldnt mind being activated and conditions were not rough and it was somehow inadequate they took an hour to get there

 

ok lastly let me put up another option , just perhaps these were conditions that rather than being out there experiencing them and testing your sailing ability you should have had tigre tucked up in a bay waiting for the change to come through while you were tucked up in bed with your wife. Your sailing well or badly is not the issue and no one can/should comment on that but the decision to go is the one that most peoplwe are questioning

[Clive 13]

ok lastly let me put up another option , just perhaps these were conditions that rather than being out there experiencing them and testing your sailing ability you should have had tigre tucked up in a bay waiting for the change to come through while you were tucked up in bed with your wife. Your sailing well or badly is not the issue and no one can/should comment on that but the decision to go is the one that most peoplwe are questioning

 

I so wish I had stayed in bed.......

[johnk 0]

so do i

 

BUT not mine

[Guest]

knot me how would you describe someone who failed to listen to advice of others , many with much more experience on that part of the coast and choose to interpret the forecast in an overly optimistic way the likely weather

Nothing more than 'Pretty average' or a politician.

 

I wasn't aware of that advice seeking/offering to be honest but then again I often ask for input from many in many situations, inc boats and weather, but at the end of the day it is still my call. Yes I have got away with a lot when everyone said don't do it and equally I've fecked up more then a few.

 

At times you just have to make a call and hope. Clive did that, was well prepared very much so with the EPIRP, flares and etc, sussed the weather and thought (guessing a bit here obviously) She'll be a rugged trip but OK, lets go. As it panned out it didn't work out.

 

Read what you like, interoperate what you like, listen to who you like, get as many safety inspectors as you like, as many laws as you like and sh*t will still happen.

 

Clive, thinking back do you think 'get there itis' was much of a factor in your call to leave when you did? By that I mean was the desire to get home that day large or knot? Just interested as to why you did leave when you did when it appear all the other multis staid.

[Guest]

the question re the time Clive was in the water was no crticism of anyone or a cheap shot it was simply a question so that I can review how i would prepare if in a similar situation, I had a good friend drown off tauranga a few years ago who was overcome by conditions in less time, since then I always carry my raft on any open water passage which was not my custom upto that time.

 

From my reading of posts here clive was in the water for close to two hours which is a hell of a lomgtime considering his location off deepwater cove on a sunday when there was still plenty off traffic in the bay. It kinda like being off Rakino on a Sunday morning...if two hours is the type of time frame that you would expect to be in the water in this type of location and incident then I will be carrying my raft when i go down to the Noises for scallops on a Sunday. Boats don't just sink on shitty days, navigational error, skin fittings, structural failure etc are more likely to put you in the piss than the weather.

 

How many people always move around with an inflated dinghy or liferaft immeadiately available when in inclosed or semi inclosed waters? Forget why Clive was there, we've spent 100's of hours in that piece of water over the years most of it with out a raft and often without the dinghy (it gets in the way of fishing and diving operations).

 

Was the personal epirb a locator GPS type, was there a radio call made at the time (I realise things happened very fast), did clive have a radio in the water with him etc

 

As to the forecast, there was no criticism of the forecast here either, simply the forecast changed because the low changed its track and speed as they do, this one changed, the one the week before also changed track and the forecast in 24hrs changed from 20kts to 50 kts, this current low has also sped up adn the original landing date of Monday has shifted to friday night/Saturday, the forecasting we get is unbelievably accurate and precise (for regions every 100nm) for a couple of little rocks in the souther ocean.

[Clive 13]

I was in a Drysuit so was warm and dry. Also the upturned cat meant that I was safely between the hulls and not getting wet or submerged.

 

If I have been in regular Musto things could have been very different.

 

It was the Saturday btw not the Sunday when it happened.

[Guest]

yes I understand you multi boys have a different safety plan than us leaners hence your drysuit and the likelihood your boat can be your raft even when inverted, for me being in the water for any extended period is not an option hence my questions.

Was your epirb the GPS position transmitting type and did you have VHF comms?