The best order to learn trim

[Guest]

My sailing partner and I have recently begun sailing a Farr against Noelexes and other Farrs. We are competent enough to get ourselves from A to B but now need to learn how to do it more quickly. There's quite a bit for us to learn obviously, and plenty of books to tell us what to do. But my question is: what should we be concentrating on first? That is, what is going to give us the biggest payback if we get it right? I guess I am talking about sail trim and boat set up, since we feel pretty good about the tactical stuff in terms of what the wind is doing. We are competing in spinnaker-less, genoa-less races (i.e., we are using the jib downwind).

 

On a similar note, is there any point in goose-winging, or is it always going to be substantially slower (which is what we found)?

 

Thanks!

[Guest]

What's first? That's a tricky one. Because it all comes first. Dinghies come first actually but that's a dumb answer here. I reckon you can start with 3 modes. Light, medium and heavy airs. Your main will have to be twisted, fully powered or flattened and feathered to get the most out of the 3 modes, Your jib has to be the right size and the right shape as well. Be gentle in the light, soft settings, nice and open, forceful and deliberate in the medium airs, tweak for power, just keep experimenting. And flat in heavy airs, don't mind a bit of backwinding, trim for the lulls, survive the gusts, if you're flogging, reef. I guess the first thing is time on the water. Lots and lots of it. Learn the boat, the sail combinations and settings that work through the range of conditions, sea and wind. Summer and Winter, there's a marked difference in the power of the breeze. Time on the water. It beats everything.

Goosewinging? Real quick flat in a breeze. You're after VMG to win races.

Get good starts and go the right way. Good luck.

[Zoe 8]

The Bill Gladstone books are really helpful... but the best thing is to find a knowledgeable crew member and pump them for information all the time.

[Guest]

Get someone who knows how to sail those boats well to sail with you a couple of times. Mark jib car positions and main sheet trim and your away. That will be the quickest and best way to learn

 

Then when your up with the play you can show someone else

 

Enjoy

[PaulR 3]

But my question is: what should we be concentrating on first? That is, what is going to give us the biggest payback if we get it right?

 

Sail Trimming.

 

Learn what the tell tales are trying to tell you.

 

Lots of stuff in you google "sail telltales" e.g.

 

http://www.wb-sails.fi/news/95_11_Tellingtales/Tellingtales.html

 

and the tell tales even move in the pictures.

[PaulR 3]

On a similar note, is there any point in goose-winging, or is it always going to be substantially slower (which is what we found)?

 

NEVER slower unless your doing it wrong.

 

What size boat?

 

If a keeler, then do a couple of races as crew, then practice what that crew was doing.

 

Try watching some race starts from the tower, with an experienced person pointing out who is doing best. Capture on a camera, use that video setting?? Then you can study "YOUR OWN" pictures that will always be that much better than somebody elses. You were actually there.

 

Go racing. Rum races.

 

Don't let that boring work stuff get in the way of learning.

Squadron / Richmond Wednesdays

Ponsonby CC & Panmure YBC have races Thursdays

Not sure about Bucklands BYC

 

Then you can try for yourself over the weekend.

 

ENJOY!!

[PaulR 3]

Zen's comments are very good.

 

Then write a report to yourself and ONLY then swap with your sailing partner. Have headings for what:

wind speed,

wind direction,

sea conditions,

tide flows,

sail settings tensions, jib leads, main traveller, tensions, main sheet,

courses,

failures,

successes,

likes,

dislikes,

lessons learned,

lessons forgotten

etc.

Then STUFF TO TRY NEXT TIME:

 

Amazingly you will read that you have both been on different boats in different races ! WOW

 

By committing things to paper, you are forced to analyize what happened, and you know when you are lying to yourself.

[Guest]

The basics of trimming in moderate airs are easy:

 

Ease the sail until the the windward and leeward tell tales are flowing horizontally.

If the windward/inside telltales are lifting trim the sail on.

If the leeward/outside telltales are lifting, ease the sail out.

 

On the headsail focus on the front telltales the most, and focus on the lower set when going upwind, and the second set up when reaching.

 

On the mainsail focus on the ribbons on the leech (trailing edge) of the sail.

 

If the leading edge of the sail is backwinding the sail is under trimmed and needs to be trimmed on... (if you can do so without overpowering the boat, see below)

 

BUT the mainsail does two main things...

 

The first is it affects the heel of your boat. The more you trim it on or bring it up the traveller the more the boat will heel. Too much heel is slow, and will see you just going sideways. Use the traveller in gusts to depower the main... ease the traveller down as the gust hits to maintain your heel angle... if the boat stands upright you have eased it too far. If the boat is heeled over substantially more than when you are at proper trim, you have not eased it enough. In BIG gusts, after you have eased the traveller all the way down you might be still overpowered and heeling too much. The next two steps you can take to give additional depowering are (i) ease the mainsheet, and (ii) ease the jib. If you are regularly having to ease the jib you are probably significantly overpowered... you should consider changing down to a smaller headsail and/or putting a reef in the main.

 

The second thing the main does is give you height. The trailing 1/3rd of the main is the most important part of the sail for giving you height. (Roughly the area where the battens are in most mains - assuming you don't have full length battens). As long as you can do so without causing the boat to heel too much, you want to present this part of the mainsail as close up to the centreline of the boat as you can... the further this is down to leeward of the centreline the less height it will generate. In light airs you want this (and your boom) right up at, or even slightly above the centreline (which might mean your traveller is above the centre line).

 

In heavier airs you will need to carry your travller lower more consistently. To increase the straightness of your leech on the main, and thus generate more height) you should trim your boom vang (sometimes also called a kicker/kicking strap) on. This pulls the boom downwards, tightening the leech of the sail. If you are overpowered in the gusts and your vang is on tight, easing it will open the leech of your sail up giving it more curve in the middle and spilling air out of the sail. Note too much vang in light to moderate airs will choke the sail off and you will lose speed.

 

Most of what I have said above is about moderate airs tirm. In light airs you want your sails more curved (i.e. deeper). This produces more power. So send your jib cars forwards in the light, and ease your main outhaul in the light to induce more depth in the sails. In heavy airs your sails begin to produce more power than you can make use off so you want to flatten them out. Move your jibs aft and pull your main outhaul (and cunningham) on.

 

To judge whether your jib cars are in the right place, basically as you luff up above close hauled and the telltales begin to flutter on the inside/windward of the sail all of the telltales up the leading edge of the jib should lift togetehr at the same time. If the bottom ones lift first your jib car is too far forward. If the top ones lift first your jib car is too far aft. (generally).

 

When reaching you want your jib car further forward than where you would have it for upwind trim... so that the bottom of the sail is more eased than the top.

 

If/when you want to trim spinnakers the golden rule is "if in doubt, ease it out". Ease the spinnaker until the luff begins to curl. Once it curls more than about 20 cm, trim it on. If it collapses (i.e. you don't trim it on fast enough) trim it on a lot to get it to set. Once it sets you should be able to ease it back out again about 2 - 3 feet as you had to over trim it to get it to set from collapsed. Keep the pole roughly 90 degrees to the wind and try to keep the pole height adjusted so that the two clews of the spinnaker are roughly even.

[Guest]

Anyone else not seeing the dit button again?

[Guest]

Thanks everyone for the advice, especially Kiwi_Bardy for the detailed explanations. That was super -- answered the questions I was beginning to formulate in my mind, especially about the jib cars.

 

A few follow-up questions:

 

1. Why use the traveller as the first option to dump air during a gust rather than letting the mainsheet out (as we were doing)?

 

2. Can you explain what "having height" means?

 

3. "In heavy airs your sails begin to produce more power than you can make use off so you want to flatten them out". Does giving a sail less curve in stronger winds depower it or give it more power? I had thought the latter. I was thinking that if you don't flatten the sail that the sail stalls in high wind because the air passing over the lee side of the sail is traveling too quickly (has too much momentum) to travel in line with the sail.

 

I'm about to have a proper look at the link Paul suggested -- looks excellent. Thanks.

[Guest]

Thanks everyone for the advice, especially Kiwi_Bardy for the detailed explanations. That was super -- answered the questions I was beginning to formulate in my mind, especially about the jib cars.

 

A few follow-up questions:

 

1. Why use the traveller as the first option to dump air during a gust rather than letting the mainsheet out (as we were doing)?

 

Becasuse easing the traveller is quicker and easier than uncleated a loaded mainsheet. It's also easier to pull on than a loaded mainsheet, so it is less tiring, and it is also much easier to get back to the same position you had before... you can usual visual cues with the traveller, but getting the same amoiunt of sheet back on is much harder to do.

 

2. Can you explain what "having height" means?

 

Yes. When you sail to windward you can't point straight into the wind, because your sails just flap. Heading UP is heading closer to pointing straight into the wind... heading DOWN is heading away from straight into the wind and towards either (first) directly across the wind, and then (after that) towards having the wind straight behind you.

 

Heading further UP is 'more height'. Heading DOWN is 'less height'.

 

If you can get more height without losing significant amounts of speed this is usually good (going upwind) as it will get you to the top mark more quickly... if you lose a lot of speed by trying for more ehight you are probably 'pinching'... sailing too high...

 

3. "In heavy airs your sails begin to produce more power than you can make use off so you want to flatten them out". Does giving a sail less curve in stronger winds depower it or give it more power?

 

It gives you more SPEED, but it does this by giving the sail LESS POWER. Flatter = less power, more depth = more power... because it is the camber (curvature in the sail) that creates the pressure differential (between the windward and leeward sides of the sail) which produces the lift - like an aeroplane wing (disclaimer - this is a very basic description of the physics involved and is not meant to be a definitive or 100% accurate in all situations description of what is going on).

 

Whatr happens in heavy air is non-flattened sails give too much power. The result is the boat heels over too much, you get too much windward helm, which meansd you need to pull the tiller to to windward to prevent th eboat rounding up... this causes the rudder to be partially sideways, which creates more drag... all of this slows the boat down. By flattening your sails in heavy airs, it depowers them, removing some of your over-poweredness, and this results in more speed.

 

I had thought the latter. I was thinking that if you don't flatten the sail that the sail stalls in high wind because the air passing over the lee side of the sail is traveling too quickly (has too much momentum) to travel in line with the sail.

 

I'm about to have a proper look at the link Paul suggested -- looks excellent. Thanks.

[Jon 360]

Great advice above for you

What you learn with sailing is the more you know, the more there is to know

 

One thing sounds like your sailing a Farr TY ?

Flat off gull winged is fastest but you need to get all the weight out of the cockpit so the transom is clear of the water.

Another good trick is have a note book in your pocket and record setting that work in different condition

 

And finally you will learn the most from your failures not your wins

[Guest]

Why can I edit my posts in the Welly talk forum threads but not here?

[Guest]

In case it is not obvious to you...

 

...adjusting the trim of a sail involves altering the angle the sail is at to the wind. You can do this in two different ways:

 

The first way is to ease or trim the sheet on. This keeps the angle of the boat to the wind the same, but shifts the sails in relation to the hull, rig and the wind.

 

The second way is not to change the trim on the sheet, but steer the boat (either up, or down). The angle of the sails to the hull and rig stay the same, but the angle of the hull, rig and sails to the wind changes.

 

So... imagine you are reaching at a wind angle of about 70 degrees to the wind. And assume your sails are trimmed perfectly - the inside and the outside telltales on the headsail are all horizontal, and the car position is in such a position that the bottom, middle and top tell tales are all in unison...

 

If you get a strong puff, the helm will load up as the boat tries to round up into the wind. You can relieve this pressue on the helm in one of two ways...

 

... ( a ) ease the sheet(s)

... ( b ) allow the boat to round up into the wind.

 

Both of these methods change the angle of the sail to the wind direction in the same way... they make the sail come closer to flapping like when the boat is head to wind.

 

If you use method ( a ) there is a point at which you will have eased the sail so far that it just flaps like a flag... the angle of the sail to the wind is now close to zero degrees... it's parallel to the wind direction. If you use method ( b ) there is a point at which the boat has rounded up far enough that you are now head to wind... the sail flaps just like a flag... the angle of the sail to the wind is now close to zero... it's parallel to the wind direction.

 

The sail flapping is when it is FULLY depowered.

 

In between where it was (perfectly trimmed) and when it is flapping is a continuum of increasingly depowered trim settings...

 

I always find that is a useful way to explain the dynamics of sail trim and helm load to new sailors. I hope it makes some sense... if not, feel free to ask questions.

[Guest]

Not sure Danaide, it isn't my boat and I am new to trailer-sailers. It's 20 ft. A Farr 6000 or 7000 or something.

 

What I mean about gull-winging is, when we were gull-winging with the wind coming directly from behind, we seemed to be going much slower than when we were a little closer to a broad reach (the sails on the same side obviously). That is, even though we weren't going straight toward the mark (directly downwind) in the latter case, we were much better off. Is this because we weren't very good at gull-winging, or because you are always better off gybing your way down the track?

 

Thanks again Kiwi_Bardy. I was actually meaning to ask about whether to handle gusts with the tiller or with the traveller. I have done both when dinghy sailing (well, my dinghy doesn't have a traveller, so it is a case of using the tiller or mainsheet). In my dinghy, I have found I have more control if I ease the mainsheet than if I steer higher. I find that if i am using the tiller to steer higher, I end up a little stranded when the gust dies, and I am a little stop-go (perhaps i should practise it more though). On my one go at steering a 44-ft keeler, however, I found that steering higher in a gust was quite natural. So, is one method prefered over the other, particularly for a trailer-sailer? If you use the tiller, are you making a bit more ground?

 

I find the aerodynamics of a sail (and aircraft wing) quite fascinating. I'd love to have a discussion about it with anybody interested, but was thinking of making it a new thread. If you don't know, many of the books we read on sailing have the physics of a sail all wrong. If you think that there is a pressure difference due to air being "more spread out" on the lee of the sail, you are in for a bit of a shock .

[Guest]

So, is one method prefered over the other, particularly for a trailer-sailer? If you use the tiller, are you making a bit more ground?

 

it depends on where you are trying to go.

 

If you are on a reach, and presumably heading straight at the mark, you usually prefer easing the sails to keep the boat going straight and not covering unneccessary ground.

 

If you want to get to windward of a boat in front that you think you are going to overtake, then less of the easing the sheet method and a little more of the let it round up a bit method is good - you want a bit of windward ground (but you don't have to wait for a gust... you can just steer a bit higher at your liesure too).

 

If you are going to windward, height is gold, so often people try to take the first part of the gust in height by allowing the boat to round up SLIGHTLY... but you don;t want to go too far because you will stall, so then once you've got the initial pressure lift you then gently ease the traveller to control the round up so it stops where you want it to stop (at a point before you start bleeding off too much speed).

 

 

What I mean about gull-winging is, when we were gull-winging with the wind coming directly from behind, we seemed to be going much slower than when we were a little closer to a broad reach (the sails on the same side obviously). That is, even though we weren't going straight toward the mark (directly downwind) in the latter case, we were much better off.

 

What you are talking about here (very accurately too) is the difference between Boat Speed(BS) (through the water in the direction you are heading) versus Velocity Made Good (VMG) to the mark (the speed at which you are moving towards the mark).

 

Which method gives the best VMG depends on the boat... lightweight skiffs do ALWAYS gybe down wind and sail angles... often quite wide angles. This is because as they sail flat off (directly down wind) they stop planing and go MUCH slower than if they sail higher (broad reaching) where they go MUCH faster, and thus even though they are sailing less straight at the mark, their VMG is higher.

 

Some older heavier boats do not accelerate nearly as much when they sail higher (onto a broad reach) so the BS gain is not enough to give a VMG gain. They sail flat off, either gull winged or with a spinnaker up.

 

Is this because we weren't very good at gull-winging, or because you are always better off gybing your way down the track?

 

If the other boats in your class are sailing flat off gull winged then it's a good bet that your type of boat goes better gull winged than heating it up and sailing higher. Sail as high as you can gull winged without the jib turning inside out. by easing the jib a lot you can sail a bit higher (and faster) and still set the jib gull winged.

[Guest]

Thanks again!