Rena's Captains comments...?

[Guest]

How. Surely they can have a pole at each start on the reef that would be storm resistant. Not a dumb Idea at all with a light, solar charger and reflector.

Serious question here. Have you actually been to sea at all? This statement has to be one of the most inane observations I have ever heard from somebody who is professing to know sooooo much about about this sort of stuff. For the rockets scientist here, this is a shot of a 250mm reinforced flange I beam we drove into 4 metres of coral rock at an almost perpendicular angle that had a "light, solar charger and reflector." and day shape fitted on top. This was the result after 2.5 metre swells for 8 hours. It bent and the top hamper got washed away. Doh.

 

 

 

It is obvious you did knot make the beam long / high enough for the conditions. The lenght only allowed for a 10ft appro sea when any idiot would have put in a 30ft beam plus. The sea has smashed into the top light, solar charger box/ housing which would have fairly securely welded onto the beam. The beam since has not changed / or bent any further since. Accordingly it was not the width on beam that the force used to bend the beam but the area size in the housing box on top on the beam, otherwise the beam would be virtualy at water level by now ! and its not. The photo shows it is possible if it is high enough as the beam is still securely in the coral.

 

It also survived at all times day and night with less than 2.4 meter swell for some considersble period in time.

 

You just can't help yourself can you pwederrel but try to belittle people to get your point on view across.

 

Your openning statement is a bit over the top pwederrel no wonder you could not get along with the Island cruising ass fleet in Tonga and after a week you scampered / high tail it as a solo as you can not hack it face to face with people.

 

 

[Guest]

Regardless of the aforementioned posts I would think doing something at even a huge cost, is better than another Rena incident.

 

Remember this grounding was very lucky timing considering the good weather that followed and allowed them to pump most of the oil of without much delay.

 

As for the argument of cost of marking this rock... well if doing nothing is the preferred option by KM rigger, and co... then why do we bother with lighthouses, bouyage, markers,...etc... around our coast if these so called captains are going to make mistakes anyway???

 

GPS is not 100% reliable, captains are not, ships engines can fail...

 

Sooooo is that not a good reason to protect our shores with whatever it takes!!!

 

Last time I was in Cairns they had their channel marked with over 50 channel markers! ( bouy and lights) Why?... because they want to and have to protect the Great Barrier Reef.

 

Why are we different.

[rigger 47]

As for the argument of cost of marking this rock... well if doing nothing is the preferred option by KM rigger, and co... then why do we bother with lighthouses, bouyage, markers,...etc... around our coast if these so called captains are going to make mistakes anyway???

 

JP if you actually read my posts correctly I have offered a much cheaper alternative solution that could be more affective as it should cause alarm bells to ring on the shipboard AIS and linked systems.

 

But based on your logic, all rocks / reefs / hazards need to be marked with buoys or beacons - who is going to pay for this - thats right the taxpayer and consumers in NZ.

[Guest]

Last time I was in Cairns they had their channel marked with over 50 channel markers! ( bouy and lights) Why?... because they want to and have to protect the Great Barrier Reef.

And how's that worked out for them? Opps, ships are still parking on the reef. Besides Aussie has a bizarre fascination with bouyage, they love the stuff with a passion. The river I was in a month ago, the Burnett which leads up to Bundaburg, had more marks than Akl Harbour probably has............. yet boats still park on the reef at the entrance, which is within 100-200mts max of probably 25 navigation aids, most being well lit buoys.

 

You could have 1,000,000 bouys and beacons installed around the coast

You could have 1500 Inspectors watching all shipping around the Coast

You could have a Pilot choppered onto every ship as soon as it crosses the 200nm limit

but it's well proven, sh*t will still happen.

 

This reef is easily miss-able if the Navigator does his job correctly. Fitting a beacon will knot improve the Navigators skill and if anything is likely to make the navigator more relaxed possibly leading to a cock-up.

 

Having lots of buoys and beacons where recreational boater are is needed as most can't navigate, as can easily be proved by looking at the number of impacts the marks in and around Akl Harbour alone have taken. Most of those marks have bright colours, reflective tape, Nav lights, radar reflectors and AIS..... yet still get nailed a lot.

 

I know what you mean JP but it's just knot feasible and if it was where do you stop? A few months ago Auckland Shitty was on the path of a large space vehicle falling back to earth, which a good size lump did finally hit, so following your cover all possible incidents thinking, wouldn't we bet better off roofing the city.

 

The incident occurred for one very simple reason, the Skipper and Naviguesser did knot do their job correctly.

[Guest]

As for the argument of cost of marking this rock... well if doing nothing is the preferred option by KM rigger, and co... then why do we bother with lighthouses, bouyage, markers,...etc... around our coast if these so called captains are going to make mistakes anyway???

 

JP if you actually read my posts correctly I have offered a much cheaper alternative solution that could be more affective as it should cause alarm bells to ring on the shipboard AIS and linked systems.

 

But based on your logic, all rocks / reefs / hazards need to be marked with buoys or beacons - who is going to pay for this - thats right the taxpayer and consumers in NZ.

 

 

As for the argument of cost of marking this rock... well if doing nothing is the preferred option by KM rigger, and co... then why do we bother with lighthouses, bouyage, markers,...etc... around our coast if these so called captains are going to make mistakes anyway???

 

 

Thats a bit over the top. read between the lines. Where does he say all rocks / reefs / ect

 

The he used the term this rock.

 

Why is it the approachers to the Tauranga harbour have only the light on the Mount, the leading lights on Matakana Island and the Bouy light with all the other hazards like the numerous reefs to seaward and other hazards, not having any when Kawau, rangi, Rangitoto, beam rock, and the minor lights in Kawau and the reef ajacent to Kawau - in other words all the navigational aids with the approaches to Auckland but the bare minimum for Tauranga. Even whangarei have more aids with less hazards.

 

Tauranga has been neglected re aids although its a growing port on considerable size and traffic.

 

 

The other factor is and is the reason why all most all accrediting agengies in Indonesia since the accident have been canned and deemed sub standard and the Indonesia waters bouyage system is based on the US. system not the British system. The navigator was Indonesian. Thats why 11 lights would be preferrable. each side on the reef.

 

OC

[Guest]

Why is it the approachers to the Tauranga harbour have only the light on the Mount, the leading lights on Matakana Island and the Bouy light with all the other hazards like the numerous reefs to seaward and other hazards, not having any when Kawau, rangi, Rangitoto, beam rock, and the minor lights in Kawau and the reef ajacent to Kawau - in other words all the navigational aids with the approaches to Auckland but the bare minimum for Tauranga. Even whangarei have more aids with less hazards.

Having lots of buoys and beacons where recreational boater are is needed as most can't navigate, as can easily be proved by looking at the number of impacts the marks in and around Akl Harbour alone have taken. Most of those marks have bright colours, reflective tape, Nav lights, radar reflectors and AIS..... yet still get nailed a lot.

[Guest]

Last time I was in Cairns they had their channel marked with over 50 channel markers! ( bouy and lights) Why?... because they want to and have to protect the Great Barrier Reef.

And how's that worked out for them? Opps, ships are still parking on the reef. Besides Aussie has a bizarre fascination with bouyage, they love the stuff with a passion. The river I was in a month ago, the Burnett which leads up to Bundaburg, had more marks than Akl Harbour probably has............. yet boats still park on the reef at the entrance, which is within 100-200mts max of probably 25 navigation aids, most being well lit buoys.

 

You could have 1,000,000 bouys and beacons installed around the coast

You could have 1500 Inspectors watching all shipping around the Coast

You could have a Pilot choppered onto every ship as soon as it crosses the 200nm limit

but it's well proven, sh*t will still happen.

 

This reef is easily miss-able if the Navigator does his job correctly. Fitting a beacon will knot improve the Navigators skill and if anything is likely to make the navigator more relaxed possibly leading to a cock-up.

 

Having lots of buoys and beacons where recreational boater are is needed as most can't navigate, as can easily be proved by looking at the number of impacts the marks in and around Akl Harbour alone have taken. Most of those marks have bright colours, reflective tape, Nav lights, radar reflectors and AIS..... yet still get nailed a lot.

 

I know what you mean JP but it's just knot feasible and if it was where do you stop? A few months ago Auckland Shitty was on the path of a large space vehicle falling back to earth, which a good size lump did finally hit, so following your cover all possible incidents thinking, wouldn't we bet better off roofing the city.

 

 

 

You are intitled six on your opion KM ... just ravings again.

 

 

If they can,t navigate they should not be on the water. The taxpayer should not have to pay for boaters to learn seamanship.

 

They should at least all have a boat masters cert and restricted radio operators lic before they are allowed on the water.

 

All govt depts are and being cut - search and rescue would be able to take a cut if all had to have a licence and the coast guard would be able to make better use on their funds..

 

 

After all 8 have 3 have a licence to ride a scooter.

 

 

But But how many recreational boaters have AIS and are sober when they hit these well lit and marked positions which are well charted. KM.

 

 

KM wouldn't we bet better off roofing the city.

 

Now theres an idea NOW !

[Guest]

As for the argument of cost of marking this rock... well if doing nothing is the preferred option by KM rigger, and co... then why do we bother with lighthouses, bouyage, markers,...etc... around our coast if these so called captains are going to make mistakes anyway???

 

JP if you actually read my posts correctly I have offered a much cheaper alternative solution that could be more affective as it should cause alarm bells to ring on the shipboard AIS and linked systems.

 

But based on your logic, all rocks / reefs / hazards need to be marked with buoys or beacons - who is going to pay for this - thats right the taxpayer and consumers in NZ.

 

Yes your option was great.

 

 

Rigger, better you taxpayers pay for some cheap bouys and lights than pay millions more for more Rena clean ups and ruin the waters you guys so cherish.

[Guest]

Having lots of buoys and beacons where recreational boater are is needed as most can't navigate, as can easily be proved by looking at the number of impacts the marks in and around Akl Harbour alone have taken. Most of those marks have bright colours, reflective tape, Nav lights, radar reflectors and AIS..... yet still get nailed a lot.

Why because on whisky , rum and beer drinkers is the reason and non tested educated boat, and jet ski users. In addition to having boatmasters, restricted radio operators licence there should be randon breath testing like on the roads with heavty fines and licence cancellations. Like Starting Now!

[Guest]

A Boatmaster Cert being compulsory will do nothing bar create a lot of expensive bureaucracy. While I do applaud those who take the time to get one it is very very basic stuff. It isn't a comprehensive Nav or anything course by any stretch of the imagination. Boatmaster is the same as a car Learners drivers license and says you know the red light means stop, the green one means go. It is very good base from which to work up to the more serious stuff from though.

 

How a Radio Operator licence will stop people hitting rocks I have no idea.

 

Having either of those would knot have stopped the Rena doing what it did. Actually anyone with only those 2 bits of paper shouldn't be on the bridge of the Rena, bar maybe if they were delivering coffee.

[wheels 543]

Am I correct in understanding that you OC passed a boatmasters course? Or was that JP? or neither am I wrong completely and neither of you have one??

[Guest]

A Boatmaster Cert being compulsory will do nothing bar create a lot of expensive bureaucracy. While I do applaud those who take the time to get one it is very very basic stuff. It isn't a comprehensive Nav or anything course by any stretch of the imagination. Boatmaster is the same as a car Learners drivers license and says you know the red light means stop, the green one means go. It is very good base from which to work up to the more serious stuff from though.

 

How a Radio Operator licence will stop people hitting rocks I have no idea.

 

Having either of those would knot have stopped the Rena doing what it did. Actually anyone with only those 2 bits of paper shouldn't be on the bridge of the Rena, bar maybe if they were delivering coffee.

 

Read the quote I was replying to. [8]

 

 

I did not say it would re Rena- your post did not mention the Rena that i was repling to either. I was referring to your statement re most recreational boaters can't navigate. Boat masters exam have all the marks, bouys, top marks, colours, lights, signals and which side the marks should be past and what each 7 mean plus heaps more including achohol and boating don't mix. I disagree with your statement it would create a lot of bureaucracy. even if it does not we are trying to reduce accidents, deaths and coastguard rescues arn't we not [8 ]mention search and rescue.

 

Your arguement is lots of bouys are needed for recreational boaters and then you go on and say they don't make any difference as they are still getting hit. I answered why. What do they do to reduce road deaths and road accidents.

 

The same should be applied to recreational boaters as Commercial shipping are not hitting them because they know what all the chart symbols mean, top marks and which side to pass them on and they are not drunk like the commercial vessel you are referring to in your other posts. Boat masters covers all that and it also stimulates interest and the tutor strongly recomments that further exams are sort, which a lot do go on to aquire. It's a start and would acheive a big reduction in what you state is happening.

 

 

I'm pleased you make no comment re composory breath testing and fines, so 7 would assume you are in favour re this point.

 

 

A light and radar reflector on the reef at Tauranga would have probably prevented the mishap. As previously stated they where lucking [ Tauranga ] it was not a oil tanker or a super tanker.

 

 

Your a master at side tracking a post and twisting it to ramble on.

 

 

[Guest]

A real cool post just deleted.

 

Call me a prick, a dick, a fizz boater, hell even call me a Aussie but downgrade my posts from Rants to mere Rambles is really taking it one step to far there fella.

 

Safe boating OC

[grant 40]

As previously stated they where lucky [ Tauranga ] it was not a oil tanker or a super tanker.

 

not meaning to interrupt an oft quoted fear with the odd fact but..

 

we don't get "super tankers" here, NZ just ain't big enough, none do the cost and I doubt they would fit in Marsden Point either.

 

Secondly, round the NZ coast the cargoes carried in tankers 90% of the time is a whole lot less trouble than the bunker fuel that came out of Rena. Give me a couple of thousands tonnes of petrol or diesel out at sea in preference to a couple of hundred tonnes of fuel oil any day, gone in a week.

 

Round the coast the bunkers carried by, well just about any international ship is a far bigger threat than a tanker. Two exceptions being Marsden Point and possibly New Plymouth, but those tankers are in and out, not port to port.

 

Any tankers coming here are double hulled now as well. Although I have heard it suggested (tongue in check) that it the same amount of metal in two pieces of steel instead of one

[Guest]

As previously stated they where lucky [ Tauranga ] it was not a oil tanker or a super tanker.

 

not meaning to interrupt an oft quoted fear with the odd fact but..

 

we don't get "super tankers" here, NZ just ain't big enough, none do the cost and I doubt they would fit in Marsden Point either.

 

Secondly, round the NZ coast the cargoes carried in tankers 90% of the time is a whole lot less trouble than the bunker fuel that came out of Rena. Give me a couple of thousands tonnes of petrol or diesel out at sea in preference to a couple of hundred tonnes of fuel oil any day, gone in a week.

 

Round the coast the bunkers carried by, well just about any international ship is a far bigger threat than a tanker. Two exceptions being Marsden Point and possibly New Plymouth, but those tankers are in and out, not port to port.

 

Any tankers coming here are double hulled now as well. Although I have heard it suggested (tongue in check) that it the same amount of metal in two pieces of steel instead of one

 

 

 

We could if a perfect storm blows 9 here on the way 7 sydney. Or Melbourne

 

 

[grant 40]

A Boatmaster Cert being compulsory will do nothing bar create a lot of expensive bureaucracy. While I do applaud those who take the time to get one it is very very basic stuff. It isn't a comprehensive Nav or anything course by any stretch of the imagination. Boatmaster is the same as a car Learners drivers license and says you know the red light means stop, the green one means go. It is very good base from which to work up to the more serious stuff from though.

 

How a Radio Operator licence will stop people hitting rocks I have no idea.

 

Having either of those would knot have stopped the Rena doing what it did. Actually anyone with only those 2 bits of paper shouldn't be on the bridge of the Rena, bar maybe if they were delivering coffee.

 

Boatmaster nav is the same as a basic commercial qualification, and to be fair the principles in there are enough to have kept the Rena floating; keep a lookout, know where you are and where you are going and is there anything in the way. Learning how to play with the toys like radar and gps is a couple of steps higher but they are only tools to allow you to do the same stuff.

 

You could branch out into a whole new discussion about whether modern electronics are "dumbing down" skills, which could be answered as both, "quite likely" and "enables more to be done more accurately and quickly" take your pick.

[grant 40]

 

We could if a perfect storm blows 9 here on the way 7 sydney. Or Melbourne

 

 

 

Sink them at sea!

 

oh wait, nothing to do that with .....

[Guest]

Right!

 

Let's talk some common sense here.

 

Auckland harbour has more traffic than Tauranga and it is bouyed and lit for Africa. Its channels and obstructions are well defined, marked and maintained.

 

When was the last ship grounding in the Gulf?

 

Tauranga has minimal obstructions and has this latest disaster and yet the Port of Tautanga are to stupid to mark this rock or define channels.

 

I wonder why and what the problem is.

 

No brainer to me.

 

 

Mark the focker, define channels, and move on.

[grant 40]

how many markers does Auckland have out in the Gulf?

 

The channel markers are where, well there is a channel.

 

As I understand it the first buoys are just outside rangitoto and they make the start of an otherwise unclear channel. Tauranga has the same. A buoy immediately outside the entrance to the channel and then channel markers inside

 

Astrolabe reef is not on the side a channel, its 12nm out to see, that's a coastal navigation area.

 

As has been suggested before once you start marking every obstruction in the coastal area where do you stop? Once you mark a few of the more obvious obstacles like Astrolabe, wait for someone to run aground on a more obscure rock and give the reason for hitting git, "but it wasn't marked"

 

DO i think a few hundred thou $$ for marking Astrolabe woud be worth it to have prevented Rena, of course. How many millions would it costs to mark all the other similar rocks/reefs around the coast to prevent the next one? Who knows.

 

Unless you can pick which is next and rush in a mark it you will be playing catch up after someone gets it wrong big time.

 

All the finger pointing at Port of Tauranga and any other authourity, is missing the point, there are only a couple of people to blame for putting the ship on the the reef and they were on the bridge of the ship when it stopped going forward.

[Guest]

....carried on from the naughty file....

 

Well let put this into perspective

 

if you look to the left of your chart you will see a freaking big light on the Brothers and just of the chart to the lower right is ohau Light.

 

Most shipping, if not all,entering from the west will come around Farewell Spit and navigate towards the cook strait with plenty of warnings from the Spit light to Stephens to Brothers then ohau light (as refrences) then finally another large light house of the southwest coast that name eludes me.

 

now that a furken lot of "heads up" for any skipper and all other rocks including Cook and the one in the middle are not on a desired or even wayward track.

 

The shortest route has no rocks place in it path.. unlike Tauranga when approaching from the east.

 

even freighters from Auckland would get plenty of warnings from new plymouth down.

 

WITH TAURANGA, WHEN APPROACHING FROM THE EAST OR EVEN THE NORTH EAST THERE IS BUGGER ALL LIGHTS OR WARNINGS UNTIL YOU HIT THIS ROCK. (THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE ELECTRONIC WARNINGS)

 

Does that explain why the rock in tauranga is more dangerous than the rock in the middle of the cook strait?

 

 

 

In context of my comment above OC is correct and you guys need to have a rethink.

 

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