Guest Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Oh Yeah!!! That response was 100% as expected so that's a $20 win for me. Thanks for being so predictable OC Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Oh Yeah!!! That response was 100% as expected so that's a $20 win for me. Thanks for being so predictable OC If I,m so predictable why ask the question on a post then state you have won $7. KM It,s wasted energy - force 4 is it knot. I now know what number not to state. 17 & State ETNZ,s Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 (unless you park something the size of a ship there) a beacon would get destroyed reasonably quickly. They tried a Ship Rigger and it didn't last long either OC, it would take one heck of a structure to survive the Sea conditions that come through there and that kind of structure would be extremely difficult and expensive to build on a reef like that. It's not a lot more than a Rock which is below water most of the time and awash the rest of the time. Also OC, it's not like the Rena was a one off sailing into Tauranga. This Ship and it's crew sailed this course on a regular schedule. They knew the Reef was there. There are Rocks all over the place in that area. In fact if they missed Astrolab, it would have been very close if they didn't hit the Okaparu reef. There are Rocks and Reefs all around NZ's coastline that are unmarked. They are charted, but unmarked. One famous one being Fishermans Rock right smack in the middle of Cook Straight. It's only 9m under the surface with 600ft of depth immediately all around it. The NZ coastline is a Dangerous place, but quite safe providing you navigate as any proper Mariner should. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 How. Surely they can have a pole at each start on the reef that would be storm resistant. Not a dumb Idea at all with a light, solar charger and reflector. Serious question here. Have you actually been to sea at all? This statement has to be one of the most inane observations I have ever heard from somebody who is professing to know sooooo much about about this sort of stuff. For the rockets scientist here, this is a shot of a 250mm reinforced flange I beam we drove into 4 metres of coral rock at an almost perpendicular angle that had a "light, solar charger and reflector." and day shape fitted on top. This was the result after 2.5 metre swells for 8 hours. It bent and the top hamper got washed away. Doh. Link to post Share on other sites
Megwyn 2 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Wow - only 2.5m swells? Didn't Astrolabe reef see 10m swells while the Rena was sitting on her? Rigger? I know you know! Link to post Share on other sites
rigger 47 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 10.8m at A beacon was the max with an avg of 6.8m for a period, conditions were worse at astrolabe reef with 13m reported at one point. Link to post Share on other sites
Megwyn 2 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I know at the time we had a huge swell running in here. I was not surprised when all the containers rocked up on the beach. That is big though - 13m on the reef. Thanks Rigger Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Oh Yeah!!! That response was 100% as expected so that's a $20 win for me. Thanks for being so predictable OC If I,m so predictable why ask the question on a post then state you have won $7. KM It,s wasted energy - force 4 is it knot. I now know what number not to state. 17 & State ETNZ,s Well said OC. Kim's a dreamer. And by the way I would spend $100k for a bouy with a light and a radar reflector on the reef. But according the KM why waste money when we can have 30 tonnes of oil on the beach, peoples lively hood rooted, and KM can make money out of disasters like this. Remember that post KM where you boasted about the big order you got post the Rena grounding Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 10.8m at A beacon was the max with an avg of 6.8m for a period, conditions were worse at astrolabe reef with 13m reported at one point. Moaning Minnie in Welly harbour has seen up to 18 - 20 metre swells wahine storms, ...for over fifty years. Link to post Share on other sites
grant 40 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Moaning Minnie in Welly harbour has seen up to 18 - 20 metre swells wahine storms, ...for over fifty years. maybe 13-15 metres tops, and moaning minnie (although she no longer moans) is not actually ON the reef but in about 18 metres of water south of the reef. At various times people have suggested that they could put a pole and light on out rock (south end of the reef) hasn't happened yet and not liely too either. Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 100K wouldn't even scratch the surface. You need to be talking in millions. Tens of millions. Or do you think it will be as simple as a steel pole, a Ramset gun and a bag of cement. Link to post Share on other sites
rigger 47 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 [quote="Justin Port And by the way I would spend $100k for a bouy with a light and a radar reflector on the reef. Based on my experiences 100K might not be enough. You would need to charter / hire at least: - one tug - a suitable barge - a suitable crane - People with the experience / skills for the job. - budget for weather delays. - dive crew ( might not be required depending upon methods chosen) Gear: - Decent light ( >6nm range) with solar panels and batts ~ starting at 15K from memory, prices might have come down a bit - but why cheap charlie it with a budget light. - Buoy - suitable for open seas - ball park figure 20-50K - a mooring system for the buoy - KM might be able to provide costs. But - A 5tonne concrete block to moor to might not be enough - know of a 3tonne block on a reasonable size buoy that got shifted by 5m seas. See crane requirement above. Actual costings for a maintenance job on a mooring system (in sheltered waters) was NZ$80K-120K, I could envisage costs to install a buoy at Astrolabe to be higher considering that you would need similar but higher spec gear than what we planned for due to the location and depth of water. No offense meant by this post, just posting info with a little bit of opinion... Link to post Share on other sites
grant 40 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 [quote name="Justin PortAnd by the way I would spend $100k for a bouy with a light and a radar reflector on the reef. Based on my experiences 100K might not be enough. You would need to charter / hire at least: - one tug - a suitable barge - a suitable crane - People with the experience / skills for the job. - budget for weather delays. - dive crew ( might not be required depending upon methods chosen) Gear: - Decent light ( >6nm range) with solar panels and batts ~ starting at 15K from memory' date=' prices might have come down a bit - but why cheap charlie it with a budget light. - Buoy - suitable for open seas - ball park figure 20-50K - a mooring system for the buoy - KM might be able to provide costs. But - A 5tonne concrete block to moor to might not be enough - know of a 3tonne block on a reasonable size buoy that got shifted by 5m seas. See crane requirement above. Actual costings for a maintenance job on a mooring system (in sheltered waters) was NZ$80K-120K, I could envisage costs to install a buoy at Astrolabe to be higher considering that you would need similar but higher spec gear than what we planned for due to the location and depth of water. No offense meant by this post, just posting info with a little bit of opinion...[/quote] Lights and panels have come down quite a bit, 6nm + light (top quality) with panels and batteries would be under $10k now. We got a quote recently to for a buoy to replacement Barrett reef buoy, open water would be the next size up, your est of $50k. Given the size of the reef would you put one buoy or more? Maintenance is a killer cost, unless you have all the right sized toys lying around and in NZ we don't tend too, apart from New Plymouth. None of which will really stop poor seamanship. We have recently had a vessel collect a lit buoy and drag it several miles out of position. Link to post Share on other sites
rigger 47 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Thanks Grant. Link to post Share on other sites
Megwyn 2 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 We have recently had a vessel collect a lit buoy and drag it several miles out of position. Now THAT was very helpful! Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 The light is the cheap part. We are supplying them to ARC now and they are at a fraction of the cost of what they once were. But all as rigger listed adds up to a huge cost. And you can't just use a mooring block in such situations, because the wave surges can shift 100ton blocks of Rock like it was a Kids toy. So you have to actually attach to the Reef itself and that is not simple. It can all be done, but the cost is enormous. And as I said earlier, this is just one of many rocks in the area. So how many do you mark. Link to post Share on other sites
Megwyn 2 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Well, Wheels, it is a nanny state, and we are unable to think for ourselves, so the answer is obvious. ALL OF THEM! Wouldn't such action fall under the responsibility and jurisdiction of those who own the seabed? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Based on my experiences 100K might not be enough.You would need to charter / hire at least: - one tug - a suitable barge - a suitable crane - People with the experience / skills for the job. - budget for weather delays. - dive crew ( might not be required depending upon methods chosen) Gear: - Decent light ( >6nm range) with solar panels and batts ~ starting at 15K from memory, prices might have come down a bit - but why cheap charlie it with a budget light. - Buoy - suitable for open seas - ball park figure 20-50K - a mooring system for the buoy - KM might be able to provide costs. But - A 5tonne concrete block to moor to might not be enough - know of a 3tonne block on a reasonable size buoy that got shifted by 5m seas. See crane requirement above. Actual costings for a maintenance job on a mooring system (in sheltered waters) was NZ$80K-120K, I could envisage costs to install a buoy at Astrolabe to be higher considering that you would need similar but higher spec gear than what we planned for due to the location and depth of water. No offense meant by this post, just posting info with a little bit of opinion... You can get very good fully approved 5nm lights for under 2.5K these days. Guessing a decent mooring system could cost 10 to 50K, all depends on how you do it. I'd be thinking a fixed mark would be the go, for durability reasons, and having installed a few I'd be thinking 100K would be easily eaten up. The maintenance costs could be large, very large. I'd say the 1st big hurdle would be getting a RC for it. To get one for a simple but desperately needed 2nm light in Kawau bay took 2 years and 12K. But why bother as Grant/Rigger correctly points out, a navigator can easily miss that and other reefs and they have done since the earth was created. One ship fecks up, Oh gosh stop the world!!!! does seem a tad of a over reaction. If we were to spend that sort of coin to stop one ship every couple of hundy years one does ask the question why we don't spend the money to put a big 'LOOK OUT FOR THE BUS' sign at the bottom of everyones driveway as getting nailed by a bus is way more common...... and fatal. If anyone thinks boats don't hit marks go suss 19 buoy in the middle of Akl harbour, it gets nailed a lot as does one we put off Takapuna. bright yellow, smothered in reflective complete with a 1-2nm light and it's been hit numerous times. The boat drivers are the issue knot the lack of navigation marks. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 No offense meant by this post, just posting info with a little bit of opinion... You can get very good fully approved 5nm lights for under 2.5K these days. Guessing a decent mooring system could cost 10 to 50K, all depends on how you do it. I'd be thinking a fixed mark would be the go, for durability reasons, and having installed a few I'd be thinking 100K would be easily eaten up. The maintenance costs could be large, very large. I'd say the 1st big hurdle would be getting a RC for it. To get one for a simple but desperately needed 2nm light in Kawau bay took 2 years and 12K. But why bother as Grant/Rigger correctly points out, a navigator can easily miss that and other reefs and they have done since the earth was created. One ship fecks up, Oh gosh stop the world!!!! does seem a tad of a over reaction. With that logic KM why did you bother spending $12 k and 4 years getting a light for Kawau. Save money don't maintain any light around NZ when they need maintaining. They are all charted. Remove the ugly sight Beam rock light house as well. Well charted in protected waters, so no danger. yes. With your reasoning. Tauranga was lucky it was not a oil tanker or super tanker and as JP has pointed in a second nearly went on it about some days ago. You only need one marker light - the furtherest edge- point to seaward. We all know you go around the furtherest mark in that area especially Commercial shipping. It is obvious you would not transverse the inside unless one wanted to take a risk. The marker light makes it easy and minimises accidents. How many vessels have hit beam rock since a light was put on it? Link to post Share on other sites
rigger 47 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 It is obvious you would not transverse the inside unless one wanted to take a risk. In the past many vessel did go inside with no issues. Vessels used to go inside East Island... without radar. Link to post Share on other sites
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