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Varnish help please


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Hi,

 

Hope someone can help as endless hours of googling and visits to Burnsco and bunnings have been fruitless.

 

My boat interior is solid maple and maple veneer..when it was built new the timber was finished with a product called "mohawk pour and wipe" which is basically a urathane and castor oil mix (Castor oil about 10%. and urathane about 40% with the rest being composed of hydrocarbons, toulene, petroleum distillates).

 

Any way it seems to have been a great product..leaves a hard satin finish and allows the natural maple woodgrain visible.

 

This stuff is applied with a rag..

 

Its due for a recoat and this stuff is a product from USA ...I cannot find anything like it in NZ..every thing is brush or roller applied and is not a match in tint for the existing surface...Maple does not take stains well so a clear (ish) finish is preferable and i do like the thin hard coat this wipe on stuff does...

 

Anyone got a heads up on where i can source an equivalent product.

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You can make a nice Danish oil with one part boiled linseed oil, one part turpentine and one part oil based varnish. I don't know how it goes in a marine environment but should be good for all your other criteria. It smells like cricket bats of course. Just wipe some on with a rag and then wipe off ten minutes or so later with a clean rag. It gives a beautiful low lustre finish. Really good for re freshing old varnish. Makes scratches pretty well disappear.

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You can make a nice Danish oil with one part boiled linseed oil, one part turpentine and one part oil based varnish. I don't know how it goes in a marine environment but should be good for all your other criteria. It smells like cricket bats of course. Just wipe some on with a rag and then wipe off ten minutes or so later with a clean rag. It gives a beautiful low lustre finish. Really good for re freshing old varnish. Makes scratches pretty well disappear.

 

Hey thanks, that is excellent info..so now i know what i am looking for i googled danish oil and bingo..its very similar to what i need.

Will see what i can buy off the shelf or make my own easily over this weekend

 

Was at bunning a few days ago and asked all the above questions to the paint staff..bunnings have a very big range on the shelf of varnish, stains and oils..including danish oils..

 

The staff were hopeless...was told they do not have a product like it as everything needed to be brushed or rollered on..even though they actually had a big range a danish oils right next to the counter..problem I have is most products do not have a composition listed on the can as it all seems to be secret recipe stuff..even when i go online to look at datasheets and MDMS there is only a list of volatiles and no composition % or even a mention of what type of oil is used..so i have to assume the oil is cheap and % make up of expensive components are minimal.

 

 

But thanks BBay..at least i now am heading in the right direction

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If you want a great result, use a commercially made product that has been well proven, thus a great recognised name. Although as long as you use good base products, there is no reason why you can not make your own and ensure you have a good quality product.

Oils that have Varnishes mixed in like you have on the timber now, are called "wiping Varnishes", or sometimes can be called "Long Oils". Specialised Timber Furniture specialist will know what you are talking about, but the places like Bunnings and M10 won't have a clue.

Every manufacturer has their own version, from the most basic being simply 2 parts Clear Polyurathane and 3 parts Thinner, through to Polyurathane Varnish mixed with a blend of oil oils. But it becomes difficult making your won when you start using oils, because some oils can react with the Polyurathane and stop it from drying, so you have to be cautious and that is where commercial products really are better to use, as they have worked out a workable Blend. You may find in the list of additional additives, Penetrol, Linseed oil and I have even come across Orange Oil and Eucalyptus oil's being used, which tend to act more like a solvent and offer fantastic wood penetration and a wonderful smell.

 

You could also try any of these products, which give great results.

Deks Olje D2. D2 is a gloss finish, D1 is a matt finish. In outside use, you apply D1 till no more soaks in and then finish with D2. Inside it is not so important and D2 is OK on it's own.

 

Cetol HLS. A beautiful translucent semi gloss finish. Once again, in outside use, the HLS is used as a soak in till timber takes no more and then you apply a different Cetol product as the finish. But inside the HLS is great on it's own.

 

Osmo Hardwax Oil. An alternative to polyurethane coatings. A durable satin finish made from plant oils and waxes. It enhances the beauty of timber with minimal darkening. The oil will not crack, peel or blister and is micro-porous when cured allowing the surface to breathe. One of the largest selling natural floor and joinery finish in the world and performance on NZ native timbers is excellent. It is a high solid, concentrated product with excellent coverage, making it very economical to use.

 

Watco Danish Oil, or pretty much any Danish oil, because Danish Oil is made to a recipe to be called Danish oil.

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I'm an award winning furniture designer maker and I've been using the above recipe for years. It will give you an oil finish second to none. The commercial danish oils are not the same as Wheels again so incorrectly states. He knows enough to be dangerous!!

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Story on the news this morning reminded me......Oily rags are a fire hazard....seriously bad fire hazard. Put your wet rags out flat, burn them on the lawn or put them in a tin with a lid. they will combust spontaneously if left in a heap.

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So, Bbay, Wheels gives a detailed analysis of the options and explains the principles, but according to you he's absolutely wrong and we should all just trust you without any justification at all?

 

Your obsession with bagging Wheels is making you look a little silly dude.

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I'll only give advice on stuff I've had personal experience with Grinna, not stuff I've read about. I do know glues (especially pva which is a great glue) and I do know danish oil from personal experience. The shop made danish oils are made to a price! I think you ought to be more concerned about how Wheels "looks" Grinna. Why don't you two go and have a cuddle somewhere private?

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I had a tin of Danish oil when we shifted - went into a box - if I can find it you are welcome to it.

 

Thank you for the kind offer rigger but i will look to find a oil which has a composition I understand.

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Wheels, thank you for the detail and it does match up with my googling experience last night after having being informed by Bbay that Danish oil is what i am looking for.

 

The problem is the products Wheels mentioned are mostly available at bunnings but there is no way to find out exactly whats in the tin you are buying and i really want to know what i am paying for..

 

Also it appears that danish oil off the shelf is not all created equal, all are made to different recipes and the only way perhaps to know you are getting a better product is by buying the more expensive one.

 

The idea of making my own as bbay suggests seems to be a great solution..

 

bbay ..does boiled linseed oil have any tint or colour to it as i really want minimal tint..just a hard wearing satin finish that leaves the maple woodgrain visible ..also maple does not want to take up colour because of the tight woodgrain so you end up with blotchy finish when any tint or stain is applied to it.

 

I also now understand that tung oil might be better for mixing with the varnish and turps ..what say you?

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Assuming you are in Auckland, go to a specialised paint centre, not Bunnings or M10. Try Guthrie Bowrons if they are in the North Island, Wairau Paint centre, or similar, where the Salespeople are clued up on paint products. I don't know of specialised Timber furniture finishing businesses, but not saying they don't exist. Try a search for some on google with it narrowed down to NZ only.

Yes you are 100% correct in that price is a very good pointer to quality. Hence why the products like Sikkens are so darn expensive. But they give you some awesome results. If you want a quality Danish Oil, then once again, look for a pricier product and one with a good recognised name.

Yes you can get a Boiled Linseed oil that is Clear. However, be vary weary of putting Linseed oil over a Polyurathane Sealed surface. It simply won't dry and will remain tacky. It will work really well on plain timber surfaces, but you do have to keep oil up to the surface regularly and I am talking every 6 months. Where as Wiping Oils can give you a few years. Linseed Oils and Tung Oils will not dry on any non pourus timber, such as a Knot where an excess of resin is present or a sealed by some kind of treatment surface. The Timber must absorb the Oil for it to actually dry.

I got the feeling that from your first post, you wanted a gloss kind of finish. Is that correct? Linseed will not give you a gloss finish. It will remain Matt.

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Assuming you are in Auckland, go to a specialised paint centre, not Bunnings or M10. Try Guthrie Bowrons if they are in the North Island, Wairau Paint centre, or similar, where the Salespeople are clued up on paint products. I don't know of specialised Timber furniture finishing businesses, but not saying they don't exist. Try a search for some on google with it narrowed down to NZ only.

Yes you are 100% correct in that price is a very good pointer to quality. Hence why the products like Sikkens are so darn expensive. But they give you some awesome results. If you want a quality Danish Oil, then once again, look for a pricier product and one with a good recognised name.

Yes you can get a Boiled Linseed oil that is Clear. However, be vary weary of putting Linseed oil over a Polyurathane Sealed surface. It simply won't dry and will remain tacky. It will work really well on plain timber surfaces, but you do have to keep oil up to the surface regularly and I am talking every 6 months. Where as Wiping Oils can give you a few years. Linseed Oils and Tung Oils will not dry on any non pourus timber, such as a Knot where an excess of resin is present or a sealed by some kind of treatment surface. The Timber must absorb the Oil for it to actually dry.

I got the feeling that from your first post, you wanted a gloss kind of finish. Is that correct? Linseed will not give you a gloss finish. It will remain Matt.

 

The product on now is a urathane /castor oil mix and the manufacture of the product state you simply sand back lightly and recoat with a rag so clearly the urathane and castor oil mix will dry over the old coat no problem..however in this case i have sanded back and removed all traces of the original coat and am back to a very white maple wood finish already for a coat of something new..

 

I do not want a gloss finish ..satin is fine..that was the original look and was good.

 

I tried some cabots stain and varnish product on a small section and the maple did not take up the stain very evenly which is when i did some research into maple timber a bit more closely and found its tight grain does not take up stains very well...

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Story on the news this morning reminded me......Oily rags are a fire hazard....seriously bad fire hazard. Put your wet rags out flat, burn them on the lawn or put them in a tin with a lid. they will combust spontaneously if left in a heap.

 

yeah..snap...i was reading last night about how the danish oil rags could ignite..and thought..yeah..nah..pretty unlikely really...and then the news on stuff this morning...exactly that happened...a timely reminder indeed

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I have not tried tung oil so can't comment Morspeed. Danish oil is the same tint as the polyurethane its made from but it goes on that thin it ought not make any noticeable difference to the colour on previously oiled surfaces. Why don't you try it somewhere out of sight? With danish oil you need to go over it regularly to keep it looking sharp, say annually at least.

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the product state you simply sand back lightly
Yes lightly is important. It is only to clean the surface, not take the surface right off.

The Castor Oil in the product you have on now, along with the Clear Polyurathane used in it, will make the coating very clear and you will have a pure natural original timber finish. The solvent is there to thin the mix down and allow deep penetration and fast drying time. Good stains need to penetrate the timber grain to give the best most natural finish.

It is too late to stain the timber now, so you need clear, or close too clear coatings. Do not use anything that has a dark stain added. Easiest way to know is remove Lid of Tin and if you can see the bottom easily, you should be fine, even if there is a slight darkness to the coating, the transparency is the Key.

Maple is a very hard dense timber and the Grain density makes Maple a Timber of choice for Acoustic stringed Instruments. It transmits sound awesomely. Cheap stains only sit on top of new Maple and once any timber has been sealed, even expensive stains will not get in.

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Rustins is not a bad oil. Far better than Cabots and Briwax oils. I would be happy to use it.

A really top quality Danish oil is Natural Oils Danish Oil. It's available here in NZ, just google the name and it will pop right up. It is a lovely oil, but rather pricey. Worth it though if you want that level of quality.

Another top quality product is Bestwood Danish oil. But I don't know of anyone stocking it in NZ. A mate of mine has a Swiss Wife and he brings in a supply of it along with their stain colour range, when they go over to visit family. But maybe worth a google search which might turn up a NZ supplier. It's one of the nicest finishes I have ever used and their Stains have to be the most natural looking I have ever seen.

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