Bogan 8 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Has something changed in the last 12 months? My lead, which is an off the shelf RCD protected cable, was apparently acceptable in late 2012. I took it to get re-tagged, but the electrician says Westhaven won't accept them any more. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Probably not, go and see Beacon Marine next to sitting ducks, they will sort you out Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 That won't stop him from tagging your lead though. I would get him to tag it and reinstall and not worry till Westhaven tells you. If there was a problem, I am sure they would have told you by now. Link to post Share on other sites
too_tall 15 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 On a side note, at Tauranga Bridge marina, we were happily using our tagged lead as a feed to the smart charger ( its the only 240v device on the yacht ). They had been happy for us to do so as there is nothing to have an electrical cert for . They now want a cert. Whats the regs surrounding this? Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 It is the typical miss-interpretation of the rules. No there is no permanent installation, so no cert required. You do need the power lead tested and tagged. That's it. Link to post Share on other sites
Westhaven Marina 0 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Hi Bogan The issue regarding the power lead specification is certainly open to interpretation. Westhaven insists on the most practical/economical interpretation that has been gathered from a number of sources including collaboration with the WMUA. We consider risk to life and property to be most important. The lead you are using is not of sufficient quality to negate the risks. Your lead is the minimum specification for a camp ground and is neither heavy duty nor tolerant to harsh salty environment. The most common cause of Marina Fires is faulty electrical connection. This has lead us to insist on an E Box with a heavy duty lead as the best compliant solution to satisfy safe responsible power delivery and usage. Kevin Lidgard Westhaven Marina Link to post Share on other sites
too_tall 15 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 It is the typical miss-interpretation of the rules. No there is no permanent installation, so no cert required. You do need the power lead tested and tagged. That's it. Pretty much my exact thoughts. Its a well built lead - triple skinned industrial flex, 2.5mm, rcbo, tagged, correct plugs... Someone getting carried away with their job description I suspect! Link to post Share on other sites
Bogan 8 Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 Hi Bogan The issue regarding the power lead specification is certainly open to interpretation. Westhaven insists on the most practical/economical interpretation that has been gathered from a number of sources including collaboration with the WMUA. We consider risk to life and property to be most important. The lead you are using is not of sufficient quality to negate the risks. Your lead is the minimum specification for a camp ground and is neither heavy duty nor tolerant to harsh salty environment. The most common cause of Marina Fires is faulty electrical connection. This has lead us to insist on an E Box with a heavy duty lead as the best compliant solution to satisfy safe responsible power delivery and usage. Kevin Lidgard Westhaven Marina Thanks for coming on here to clarify. The lead I was using is a PDL Powerguard IP56 rated RCD cordset. I have a cable that previously complied: 20A cable with the appropriate connector at the marina end and a 10A breaker and switch plate at the boat end. When that no longer complied I was directed to the PDL solution. Now I have to do something else - which seems it should be a combo of the two. Eg: fit the PDL RCD in line in the 20A cable. Link to post Share on other sites
Westhaven Marina 0 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Hi Bogan The risk is higher than most people imagine and every connection needs to be appropriate. The link and code will show you the minimum setup if you are intending to connect to the marina supply while you are not in attendance. They are $229 plus GST through most electrical retailers. http://www.electrex.co.nz/electrex-prod ... power.html Code: MARSUP10 This unit is appropriate to supply power tools & appliances used onboard when the vessel does not have it’s own shore power switchboard. Includes a waterproof 10 Amp outlet, MCB overload with your choice of 10, 15 or 20 metre long lead, plus marina plug. Kevin Lidgard Link to post Share on other sites
ScottiE 174 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Kevin, Just for clarifcation - are you actually saying that the cord set that Bogan refers to is okay for using tools etc - ie. while in attendance? Ie. you require a MCB rather than an RCD if you're not in attendance. Is there not a sufficient CB in your shore supply? I am somewhat intrigued that the Marina thinks that a 20A lead is not heavy duty enough for you and that a IP56 rated and tested RCD is not tolerant enough for you to a harsh salty environment. Cheers, ScottiE Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I am somewhat intrigued that the Marina thinks that a 20A lead is not heavy duty enough for you and that a IP56 rated and tested RCD is not tolerant enough for you to a harsh salty environment. That part I agree with you Scottie. For the other points though, the shore supply box provides a 16A supply. Those Blue Plugs are rated for 16A. But for appliances like a Drill or a normal size Battery charger with a standard 3pin type plug, that is rated at 10A. So the 16A breaker at the Shore Box protects the cable from Shore box to Boat. Then a 10A breaker at the box on your boat protects the lead and it;s appliance which is rated to only 10A. If it was 16A, it is highly possible that a dead short on the 10A appliance would simply cause the small lead to melt and perhaps catch something on fire rather than blow the 16A breaker at the Shore supply box. Does that make sense? Link to post Share on other sites
too_tall 15 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I think that its fair to say that most marina operators don't really have a good understanding of what is required. We are "required" by our home marina to have a RCBO protected cable. Which plugs into a power box which has an RCBO in it... This is not actually a correct interpenetration of the electrical regs. Then one of the Marinas we often have stays in require us to only have an RCD protected cable. This has not got any current protection built in at all, but again doubles up on their power box which is protected by an RCBO... Another marina has claimed that their electrician has to tag the lead before we could plug in. The lead had been tagged only the day prior. RCBO is a combination current overload protection (circuit breaker)/residual current device for those not in the know... Doubling up on this is not actually going to make anything safer unless one has already failed ( which is why the marinas are required to have them tested at regular intervals ). An IP 56 device is really not that great in a harsh salty environment - x6 defines heavy seas and water jets - although a waterblaster is generally well capable of forcing water into an x6 enclosure. Hopefully the heavy seas part wont be prevalent at any marinas... I suspect that if you look at the IP ratings of your electronics most will be IP68. I know that all ours are. As wheels has noted, the requirement to control the current able to be delivered to the appliance plugs - 10amp - is why there is a requirement for a MCB or RCBO on the lead. That being said, most 10A plugs in home and commercial premises are fed with a 20 or 32 amp circuit breaker because there are multiple outlets on the circuit..... And as a last note - just remember that RCD's do save lives, but if someone has a dicky ticker or similar they may well still be killed before the RCD cuts power. An RCD is no excuse for careless practises. Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Also to add, why yet another RCD is required is that the RCD on the Dock head power supply box trips at 60mA of current and a slightly slower fraction of a second.Where as the RCD on a "personal" power lead triggers at just 30mA and in a much faster time. So in theory, the "personal" power lead RCD should trigger and leave the main supply RCD operating unless a very significant fault has occured. On second thought re the Power lead. I suppose I have seen many dangling in the water, which surprises me people leave them that way, but...they do. Now not many people understand that Salt water is actually hard on Plastics. Salt being Sodium Chloride, which the Chloride being in the Family of Chlorine. Chlorides are a major Enemy of many Plastics and so a Cable sheath capable of withstanding Chlorides is actually quite important. What I do wish to see in NZ, is a one commonality for all Marina's. There are too many variations and interpretations of rules and what annoy's us punters most of all, is often no explanation of why, but a very legalistic rule of "Thou shalt comply or else". At least that is what I have found. I have even found Inspectors having differing opinions and one Inspector I cam across actually banned a Power receptacle being sold in a Chandlery for the purpose of fitting shore power to the Boat. He was tracked down and told very quickly of his errors. Another Inspector I had aboard my own boat, I had to tell him how Shore EARTH Isolation worked for Galvanic Control. He didn't know how to test it. I have mentioned to Port Marl some issues in the past and they were simply not interested, saying they leave that to the Inspector. Well that clearly was not a great response when the Inspector had no idea either. I would like to thank Kevin of Westhaven Marina for commenting here. Kevin, please don't ever think that any possible negative comment has ever been directed at you or Westhaven. With you replying here, we have been able to have a very good and hopefully helpful discussion on this very misunderstood (by Boaties) subject. As a slight differing angle to this subject, we now have a very new set of Electrical wiring regs. Nothing much has changed, except that from what I understand, if you have a certified AC system, the DC system is now supposed to also comply with the regulations. Or put it another way, the Regulations cover the AC and DC all in one breath and there is nothing I have read that say the two are apart from one another as far as legal requirements go. In these new requirements, a Bronze underwater Earthing Plate is supposed to be fitted to the external Hull. I bet very few boats comply with the DC regs and even few'er with the Bronze plate and I know of no Electrical Inspector that goes anywhere near the DC system and in fact several have verbally said they are not interested in it. Many most likely wouldn't know what to go looking for anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
ScottiE 174 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Sorry - wasn't intending to be critical. My apologies Kevin if it was taken that way. It's just that Kevin's comments seem to differ from their guidelines on their website. So I wondered then if there was an attempt to differentiate between attended and unattended use plug portable leads. http://www.westhaven.co.nz/Westhaven/Bo ... lines.aspx Reading the recommendations again I think Zoe probably needs to improve the "Englishness"! They way I read them either both products mentioned above comply or neither do. Also - as an engineer - the notion of recommending one product over another in a 'public' sense can be dangerous. Link to post Share on other sites
too_tall 15 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Also to add, why yet another RCD is required is that the RCD on the Dock head power supply box trips at 60mA of current and a slightly slower fraction of a second.Where as the RCD on a "personal" power lead triggers at just 30mA and in a much faster time. So in theory, the "personal" power lead RCD should trigger and leave the main supply RCD operating unless a very significant fault has occured. This might be what the guidelines for the RCD requirements are, but in fact most will trip at less than 10ma - and I know of a large pile of RCD's removed from a marina because a sensible electrical inspector suggested that anything over 15ma trip current and that did not trip in less than 30ms at the rated 15ma was not ideal in a challenging environment such as a marina. So the replacement ones were all tested before installation. RCD's will trip at differing speeds depending on the leakage current - a type 2 ( >15ma, up to 300ms tripping time at 15ma ) might not trip at all with a 10ma current. That is sufficient to kill in certain situations. However, quite unlikely. But the reality of most RCD's I have seen tested has been that tripping times around 40ms are most common, and at currents of not more than 15ma. Whichever way you look at it, a lot of commercial users stipulate that their RCD's are tested to a higher standard than the legal requirements. This is a good thing. A friend who has a maintenance contract with KFC for all electrical work has literally boxes full of old RCD's which have failed KFC's tests but are still well above the required standard as by nz legislation. Kudos to KFC. It is _generally_ assumed that anything more than 100ma passing through the torso is fatal, and above 10ma is at the very least, very painful. Consider that in a marina environment you may be covered in, or even partly immersed in salt water.. But this is getting far off the original topic - which was that the marina in question were requiring a current protected connection, nothing to do with the RCD... Link to post Share on other sites
Westhaven Marina 0 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I am finding the on line discussions very positive and am taking it seriously. I would like to consider all the opinions that continue to be posted. If the advice i have been given proves to be less than perfect I am not too proud to make adjustments to Westhaven's minimum requirement for electrical connections. Our intention is to be informed, fair and safe and to specify the requirements for a solution that is also affordable. Westhaven does not recommend any supplier, and the pictures and links are only given as examples. Kevin Lidgard Westhaven Marina Link to post Share on other sites
otto 31 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 PM sent Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Otto, if the PM is full of good info, which from you I am sure it is (oh, I see we don't have an ass kissing avatar I would love to see it. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Unrelated to electrical leads but related to westhaven. Thanks so much to the security guys last night who gave us a tow in after our water pump stopped by the tank farm. Awesome service, I'll email and drop off some goodies. :thumb up: p.s. changed the impeller and flushed the pipes this morning and it's working fine Phew.. Link to post Share on other sites
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