K4309
-
Content Count
686 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
46
Content Type
Profiles
Media Demo
Forums
Gallery
Calendar
Store
Posts posted by K4309
-
-
42 minutes ago, Frank said:
Hard to disappear a yacht of that size very weird
Unless you head east.
When she was a he, she wanted to sail around the world, specifically to set a record for the longest time at sea, or the longest time circling the earth or something. That is why they build the boat in the first place. I think the goal was 3 continuous non stop, unsupported laps.
It is plausible the govt is just trying to save her from herself, and she just wanted to go sailing. I suspect the biggest issue is perhaps she didn't arrange a new ICV or what ever CAT 1 is called now. And didn't clear customs (which you don't need to do if your voyage starts and ends in NZ).
She has offended Maritime NZ, breached regulation 57, clause f, subclause (iii) and now a bureaucrat at MNZ is trying to find her to extract their pound of flesh under Appendix R, sub-part 53 of the aforementioned legislative clauses. Heaven forbid someone just going sailing, on their own boat. These people must be stopped, you know.
Who knows, perhaps she has antifouling that works, or was seen sailing in the company of dolphins, or some other high crime. We don't know, the govt machine hasn't said why they want to find this person, who as far as I can tell is just minding their own business.
-
2
-
-
14 hours ago, Black Panther said:
Bought the outboard for peanuts on trade me.
If your old one started 2nd pull, why did you replace it?
and what did you do with it? (want to sell it?)
In theory these little outboards are super easy to service. It could be something as simple as a gummy float in the carb. Where petrol has sat in it too long and gum / resins from the petrol have fouled parts of the carb related to supplying fuel. Especially with all this 'save the planet, stop climate change bio-fuel' in it, which adsorbs water and goes stale like a bastard. A gummy float can mean either the carb floods on starting, or the bowl drains so when you go to start it you have to fill the bowl before it starts. 7 pulls sounds like that. Short story is hard to start is often a gummy float.
If it isn't a brand new unit under warranty, as in a cheapy off TM, I'd pull the carb apart, spray large quantities of Carb-cleaner (CRC product, smells lovely / sweet), and put it all back together. Take photos as you pull it apart, so you can put it back together the same way. Or just watch some U-tube videos, they seem to have videos on how to strip down and fix almost everything these days. I would say you don't need to be mechanically inclined to strip and clean a carb. Just organised enough to not drop the little screw overboard, and intelligent enough to put it back together the way you took it apart, and not break anything by trying to take it apart if it doesn't come apart by un-screwing.
If it is something to do with a carb mixture setting or idle screw etc that is a tad more complex. I either wouldn't touch it, would refer to U-tube videos, or if it is really causing you a problem take it to a professional and part with modern currency.
If my 2hp gets temperamental this is what I do (strip the carb), then it starts second pull every time.
-
1
-
-
It was lucky that ship was made from very durable materials.
No Cardboard.
No cardboard derivatives.
And it met the minimum crewing requirement. One.
-
1
-
1
-
-
40 minutes ago, ex Elly said:
Rule-breaking boaties are reportedly undermining a sanctuary’s efforts to protect dolphins in Northland’s gem for marine wildlife watching.
The finding was part of a deep dive into the effectiveness of the Bay of Islands’ (Te Pēwhairangi) Marine Mammal Sanctuary.
The findings, released by the Department of Conservation (DoC) earlier this year, showed the number of bottlenose dolphins in the area was continuing to decline.
The report stated 40 bottlenose dolphins were estimated to be in the area last autumn.
The figure was a stark drop from the 244 dolphins in 1997 but an improvement on the population’s lowest point of 16 dolphins in 2019.
I'm suspecting it's nothing to do with caulerpa and the associated degradation of bait fish habitats and everything to do with those evil world destroying terrorist boaties.
With so many interconnected aspects to an environment like the BoI, it is amazing how the evil boatie gets utterly everything pinned on them.
No cruise ships.
No high speed tourist boat operations.
No commercial fishing.
No agricultural run off.
No La Nina summers
Just evil boaties, minding their own business putting around at 6 knots...
-
1
-
-
1 hour ago, waikiore said:
It seems that Paul Lewis from the Herald is writing whatever Dalton tells him to, not really reflecting the true position of the challengers in this tightened market for sponsor dollars worldwide.
The Herald you say?
There is a reason trust in Mainstream Media is so low.
-
11 hours ago, BOI said:
Boats sink in new Waipiro Bay Marina!
See the photo at https://www.waipiromarina.co.nz/
Why would anyone want to paddleboard in a marina when they currently can paddle in a peaceful bay?
I'm sorry, but are you using a bad AI generated graphic to make a political point?
You make it sound like a boat has actually sunk. It's a computer generated render FFS.
-
1
-
-
2 hours ago, ex Elly said:
Is it Coppercoat?
I've stripped coppercoat back, didn't look like that.
-
43 minutes ago, Guest said:
I did a bit of hand wringing before I chose LiFePO4. (Actually ordered firefly carbon & cancelled as there was a wait)
All that time I've had cordless drills, mini grinders, a laptop and multi phones living onboard with little much of a second thought.
A little strange how we perceive risk. I've used an abused these other chemistries for years, (on land) hence no qualms at all.
That is what I'm on about. The vast array of portable lithium type batteries we all have now, and largely forget about.
AIA (or one of the large insurers) report a 17% increase in house fires last year. That is attributed to the greater numbers of portable lithium type batteries in use fairly much everywhere.
Was in Milldale today and noted a brand new very large house that had fresh fire damage. Back of the house was clearly involved, two floors, deck, cladding, smoke damage everywhere I could see. Windows blown out with broken panes still hanging. And no, that wasn't the recent Milldale fire where the fire crews couldn't get their trucks down the streets, that spread to 4 neighbouring properties. Incidentally that one was started by a battery left on a charger.
There are so many things other than your house batteries that can kick off at a moments notice.
-
1
-
-
Absolutely Aa, a 3 year election cycle is entirely incompatible with long term infrastructure planning. The constant chopping and changing of the national land transport plan, hospital builds or even Cook Straight ferries illustrates that well.
Now, to rapidly step away of the political aspects.
People never think they might be part of the problem. It is always someone else, and normally some large organisation that is easy to blame. Ignoring the fact that those organisations are made up of (largely) hard working and dedicated individual.
Example of "I'm not part of the problem" - there was a letter to the editor in this months issue of Boating NZ magazine. Kawau bach owner bitching about boaties discharging wastewater around Kawau, blaming boatings for contaminating and polluting the environment.
Now, there are no roads on Kawau (excluding short roads and South Cove and Schoolhouse Bay). The vast majority of houses on Kawau are only accessed by water. So, how do they maintain their septic tanks? How can they get sucker trucks up to their tanks to empty them?
Now, over the time period the bach owners say all the boats come to Kawau and pollute the water, how many of those baches are rammed full of family, extend family and friends? Overloading their un-maintained septic tanks.
Oh, and has anyone ever seen the land on Kawau? steep and utterly hopeless at absorbing disposal water...
Is it possible the bach owner is contributing to the problem they are blaming on someone else?
-
2
-
-
How many people have smoke alarms on your boat?
As IT wisely points out, there are many ways to start a fire in an electrical system, not just the battery.
And who has no other portable electronic devices on the boat? No phones, laptops, air-buds, smart watches, vapes, stereo remote controls, party lights, battery banks, handheld VHF's, electric outboards?
I think there is a real risk of fire on a boat, but it isn't from just one source. Consequently it is wise to plan for and assess the risk. Smoke alarm, well placed fire blankets, fire extinguishers, grab bag for a quick get-away.
Noting that most likely causes of fire are around the main companionway. Engine (under stairs) batteries, switch panel etc, almost always around or adjacent to the main companionway (on a yacht)
Following that, how many people have a second exit point from the saloon? and could everyone onboard actually get out of it (assuming a forward hatch with no steps).
-
1
-
-
19 hours ago, Bad Kitty said:
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1BCECnWoSC/
Here's some more fact free stuff K1234.
I still put a lot of importance on it!
Yes, it is a shame that Matakana Oysters need to close.
But, some would question the logic of trying to grow and sell filter feeders downstream from a major urban area. A bit like trying to run a tranquil monastery retreat on Quay St, then complaining there is too much noise and traffic.
Asides from a failing wastewater system any urban area is going to produce large quantities of things filter feeders are going to suck up that are very bad for you. Road run-off for example. Including heavy metals from break pads. How much agricultural land is around and upstream of the Mahurangi now? Cows, sheep, pigs, goats, ducks, horses, live-aboard boaties etc are all defecating in the same catchment. And that lot aren't normally captured and treated.
But, my point is that Watercare are spending moonbeams to fix the issue. The various physical works are well underway, and have been for a number of years. So what is the point in criticising them while they are already well underway to fixing the issue?
At the risk of making some people chock on their tea, it could be argued the Super City came about to fix this very problem. The irony being Watercare has the size and balance sheet to actually fund the billion odd dollars of upgrades to fix the issues. The current issues (wastewater overflows) are not to do with urban growth around Warkworth, but a historical lack of investment in infrastructure by the Rodney District Council, specifically old and failed pipes in 'Old Warkworth'.
It is / was the exact same issue that afflicts every town and small city across the country. Communities (Councils) with a static revenue lacking the means to fund long term upgrades to their wastewater networks.
RDC ran the Warkworth WWTP without a resource consent for about 15 years. They didn't even have legal access to the WWTP. And they couldn't afford to do anything about it. Noting that the overflows in April caused by all that heavy rain would have come from the old Warkworth network. Nothing to do with the new developments.
The fact of the matter being that the community (via Watercare) could never have afforded to sort the issues if it weren't for the growth and new developments. Watercare get about $40k lump sum for each new connection, plus water rates in perpetuity. That is why the community (via Watercare) are able to afford this massive upgrade project.
And a hypocrisy that always grates me, the vast majority of people here live in houses (Black Panther being the exception). Yet all of us already living in houses bitch and moan when other people want to live in houses too. That is what land development does, it creates houses so people can live in them, not in cars. Not under bridges. Not in shitbox rotting boats on swing moorings in inappropriate places, erm, like the Mahurangi, where the live-aboards are quietly shitting in the water and spreading norovirus around
So yeah, not great that Matakana Oysters shut down. But it needs to be understood, the current Watercare mob are the only people actually fixing this issue, and that is the first time in about 60 years that anyone actually got their sh*t together enough (excuse the pun) to be able to fix the issue.
-
2
-
4
-
-
On November 10 Piper (a tunnel-boring machine) completed the final leg of her journey to install a five-kilometre-long pipeline to transport wastewater from Warkworth to the Snells Beach Wastewater Treatment Plant.
The new pipeline is part of a broader programme of work by Watercare to improve the performance of the local wastewater network and support growth in Warkworth, Snells Beach and Algies Bay.
Watercare is investing over $300 million, which includes building a state-of-the-art wastewater treatment plant at Snells Beach.
-
7 hours ago, Black Panther said:
Well that is a fact free load of emotional ladeda.
Doesn't even have a date on it. Is it from a decade ago? @Black Panther, is that a current thing or some sort of old posting?
Watercare already have a multi-billion dollar project underway to sort it. It's been underway for 5 to 8 years, depending on which bit of physical works you say is the start of the project.
Historically Rodney District Council had a wastewater treatment plant next to Robertsons yard. It was hopeless. The main issue is that Warkworth's poo pipes leak like a sieve, so every time it rains the WWTP gets inundated. Rodney District Council never even had appropriate legal right to access the land the WWTP is on, as it crossed Robertson's land and due to the two Robertsons not talking to each other, RDC could never get legal access over the line. That WWTP was operated without a Resource Consent for a decade or two, as it couldn't even get consent. Couldn't treat to an appropriate standard.
BUT, Rodney District Council kept their rates and wastewater charges nice and cheap.
Last I checked, the Snells Beach WWTP was being HUGELY upgraded to accept all of Warkworth's flow, including the gazzillion new houses going in around Warkworth. The marine outfall at Martin's Bay was upgraded, as was the discharge lines from the Snell's WWTP to the outfall. The Snells site had space for the upgrade.
A new terminal pump station was built at Warkworth and a pipeline tunnelled under the river to the new Snells WWTP. The pump station is in Lucy Moore Memorial Park, at the end of Warkworth Street. That pump station by itself was probably in the order of $500mil. (at least a couple of hundy mil). You can see it in construction on aerial photos. That is how out of date this petition is.
Next minute everyone will be bitching about how much their Watercare bills are.
Or, you could be in the Orewa / Silverdale / Whangaparaoa area where Watercare have placed a complete embargo on new connections. Sounds great, unless you own residential zoned land you now can't build on, or worse, want to live in a house, but can't because you can't get consent due to the wastewater connection embargo.
Even for the technically illiterate, a quick google search throws up the facts of the whole project. Shame the petition didn't do some basic fact checking first.
Warkworth is undergoing significant wastewater infrastructure upgrades, including a new pipeline, pump station, wastewater treatment plant, and outfall pipe to address planned growth and reduce overflows into the Mahurangi River. These projects will accommodate a projected population increase of up to 20,000 people in the coming decades.
-
1
-
-
If you go stainless, I would line it with a flame proof lining / insulation.
The sound proofing foam I've got for my engine is rated as flame proof. I took a blowtorch to it and still couldn't get it to catch. Forget the trade name now, but it was the good stuff from a specialist supplier, not the cheap stuff from Burnsco. About 25mm thick. You can get it without the alloy foil lining, which would be a hassle. Nice and soft cushioning too, which may help to reduce vibration damage to the batteries.
Anyway, my point is you can build a good strong stainless box, and reduce the conductive risk by lining it with something both non-conductive and fire-proof.
Personally, I'd go for lead carbon batteries instead of Lithium, similar electrical charge / discharge characteristics, fraction of the price and you don't need a circuit board (BMS) to stop them exploding. But you didn't ask that question so I'll keep my thoughts to myself on battery type
-
1 hour ago, waikiore said:
Totally in reverse of best practice and the rest of the world
But it's what you do if you don't want to pay for a proper filtration system and appropriate drainage on the hardstand.
Even with integrated vacuums, dry sanding toxic poisons is simply crazy.
-
1
-
1
-
-
If we could just add this to the emissions trading scheme, sell carbon credits to the US and Europe, we'd make squillions of dollars. Perhaps even enough to build a new hospital in Dunedin.
Jokes aside, this is carbon sequestration at it's finest. Sometimes nature has it's own way of finding balance.
-
On 17/04/2025 at 8:55 PM, Paul Nicol said:
I'm looking at bringing a small 30ft yacht from Mana to BOI via the west coast. Has anyone done this. Is it viable as a solo trip. I don't have autohelm.
In addition to the other comments, I would say a multi day solo trip up an exposed coast with only 1 safe harbour is not really possible without self steering of some sort. If the boat is a very old style with long keel and can track straight, then it could be possible.
A large factor in answering your question depends on what you haven't said. Are you intimately familiar with the boat and done several overnight or multi day solo trips? If so, then it is possible, but as Psyche noted, we are into late autumn / winter and the weather is going to become increasingly problematic.
If the boat is new to you, I'd say a big no. There are a bunch of reasons for that, around your familiarity with the boat, established systems of doing things - you need to be able to manage the boat, navigate, feed yourself, be able to take a sh*t, check weather and know what sail combinations are best, all in an utterly comatose state. It takes time in the boat to learn all of that, hence the comment about several overnight or multi day solo trips. If you can't leave the helm, can you do any of that?
And that is just sailing the boat, before considering how to get any sleep...
That, and new to you boats tend to have things break or fail when first used. It is a trueism that boats need to be used to be in good order. If they've just been sold, they've almost always been sitting around for a while and you only discover the things that have failed / seized / given up when you go to use it. These are normally only small things, but can add up to a domino effect on a multi day solo trip up an exposed coast.
Yes, it is possible and has been done plenty of times to take a 30fter up the west coast. Solo without an autopilot less so, but still possible in theory. As Psyche says, if you are looking at a bargain in Mana, I'd flag it and look for a bargain in BoI or Auckland, in that size there are good boats being given away.
-
3
-
-
Crazy
in MarineTalk
I don't know, but I have had a long chat with a couple on the beach at Tindalls that this may have been. So noting it is just conjecture that this couple is the couple I spoke to.
Short story is (the couple I spoke to) are "alternative lifestylers" and were living in a campervan. They had bought an old wooden launch and were excited about using that for boating and living on it. Possibly plywood, or at least wooden, as in not a modern plastic thing. Lets call it one of your typical end of life boats you find on moorings all around Auckland. It did not have insurance, they were keen for third party so as to enable haul outs and get into other moorings, which I gave them some advice on (is it the Marina Shop in Opua that does 3rd party for about $350?)
They would have been on a mooring there, they were renting one. They would have been in Tindalls cause they basically didn't have anywhere else to go. I did have a long conversation with them on alternative places to get a mooring, such as Stillwater, Weiti and up the Mahu.
They were new to boating and consequently lacking in knowledge. Lovely people and we had a great yarn. To convey a bit about them in the politest way I can think of, I'd describe them as 'non-conformist'.
In saying all that, there were a few safety concerns I noted when yarning with them, which is why I think the couple in the story were the couple I spoke to. Not wanting to go into details as I don't want this to be a name and shame. The couple will be traumatised and feeling like sh*t already.
In short, I would say this is more about Auckland's housing shortage and costs rather than a regular boating incident.
-
2
-
2
-
-
7 hours ago, markm said:
Kind of have to pass the observation, mentions in this thread a few times of the issues at cycling and canoeing. Now firstly I'd have to admit knowing almost nothing of them, sheltered life and all that. Pretty sure though my life isn't so sheltered I couldn't help noticing cycling, canoeing and sailing all probably being in the top five for NZ for Olympic medals in the last 15-20 years. Results would seem to indicate being investigated or whatever is a prerequisite for success rather than a path to failure?
Noting you admit to knowing nothing, a good first step might be googling who Olivia Podmore was.
If you aren't sure why these culture and integrity investigations are needed, that should school you up fairly fast.
The short story is that the coach was shagging her team mate. Team mate went 'missing' one night at a world champs so Podmore raised the alarm, fearing for the personal safety of said team mate. Coach f**king athlete was then found out by team management, cover unwittingly blown by Podmore.
Coach was a tad vindicitve and sorted it so that Podmore was de-selected for the next Olympics.
Amongst all that, the team psych, who Podmore was going to for help, was feeding all her private details back to vindictive coach.
A fair few other issues as well. Team mates went on to win Olympic medals - so country proud and happy. Podmore killed herself.
But yeah, nothing to see here. As long as we get the medals I guess it doesn't matter who we chew up and spit out.
-
1 hour ago, aardvarkash10 said:
Sorry, it was NIWA. Less saying than inferred from their commentary.
Ahh, that one.
I've re-read that several times now. When I first read it at the start of Dec it looked like a forecast, esp the high confidence of higher than normal temperatures (started wearing winter shirts and woolen jerseys again last few days - which does not align with higher than normal temp).
I re-read it last week and it now reads more like a horoscope. Completely indecipherable. Being horoscope style, I think there is a great risk of people inferring what they want to hear out of that
I'd be keen to know if any forumites know of good medium term weather blogs or what not. Am waiting for Niwa's January climate outlook to be issued, but aren't holding my breath.
-
13 minutes ago, aardvarkash10 said:
Metservice says to expect southerlies for at least two more weeks, then a shift to more northerly patterns.
Where does it say that? is it a blog thing or some sort of medium term forecast?
Keen for a link if you have it handy.
-
1 hour ago, motorb said:
What forecast models do you think work well for the Hauraki? Metservice tend to underestimate wind I reckon. I try to look at various options, and as you said, if they don't agree then things are generally going to be unpredictable.
Metservice is a shambles. But they get their data from all the same global models.
I use Predict Wind, with the paid subscription (standard). Gives access to 6 models. Four are standard international global models, forget the names (GFS, ECMWF, UKMO, which I think are North American, European and UK), and two Predict Wind models, which are based on two of the global models with PW enhancements. I put most weight on the two PW models, but PW show the forecast accuracy for all the models so you can go and see which ones have been most accurate over the last couple of weeks.
It is not that one model is ever better than any of the others. And none are 'better' for the Gulf than others. With 6 models, as said earlier, if they all line up you have high confidence in the forecast, if they are all different you have low confidence in the forecast. But knowing your forecast confidence is key. You can't get that by looking at a single model, like Metvuw or Swellmap or Metservice or what ever. All those services take the exact same global model data and present it with different graphics and user interface. But the underlying data is exactly the same.
Predict Wind also have very extensive now-casting, and an extensive range of live web-cams as well. Is handy for educating yourself on actual conditions in a given wind strength and direction for spots without having to physically go there (example, there is a camera above the Kawau Boating Club, so you can see how blowy Bon Accord is in a SW or Westerly without going in there and deciding it is too blowy, then bugging out to Mahurangi). If you want to get super techo, PW also do 1 km grid forecasts (super high resolution) and a whole lot of weather routing type stuff, fastest route for a given departure time, optimisation of departure time, and even things like hull slaming / how rough it will be (which I haven't used). Some of that stuff can be a distraction, but if you understand it's limitations can also be really handy. Just looking at a 1km forecast is hugely more detailed than an 8 km forecast, which is in itself night and day better than a 50km data-grid forecast, which is what most forecast outputs are in. 1 km grid forecasts are good if you into racing and combine that with weather routing.
Every now and then I will also look at Niwa's climate outlook, but that is for longer term trends (3 months) and currently is about as useful as reading a horoscope. If you do a deep dive into Niwa's climate outlook you can find the techo stuff the quants use to produce the forecasts (quantitative data analysts). It covers metrics on a more global scale such as the difference in easter and western pacific water temp (indicator of La Nina and strength, think its called SAM), the Indian Ocean Dipole (kind of the same as SAM, has a big effect on highs and lows heading toward NZ) and the Madden Julian Oscilliation, which to be honest I still haven't gotten my head around. The point is, all those things are in a state of flux at the moment, there is no clear patterns and no known weather pattern getting established. That all indicates to me (rightly or wrongly) that the weather this summer is 'off script', it is unstable, and the forecasters are struggling to understand the current atmospheric carrying ons, and therefore the short term forecasts won't be that reliable. I'm assuming up until the weather falls back into a more predictable pattern.
-
Who've you got as crew?
If it's the missus and kids the forecasts are a different proposition to going with a couple of hard-arsed mates. That is on the basis of beating back from Barrier in a 25fter with 25 gusting 35 on the nose for 8 hours plus.
Currently I wouldn't trust a forecast till it happens at the moment (for good weather that is). If several models are saying different things, all that is tell you is a low certainty of the the outcome. If all models say the same thing, there is a high certainty of what they say actually happening. But these current patterns are unseasonal and highly unusual. Personally I don't think it's anything to do with a high forming, but that low that has been sitting over the Chathams since Christmas Eve, that can push back into a high any time it wants and set up more Southerly / SW.
And the only certainty is forecasts change over 7 days. What a forecast says now will not be what the weather actually is next Friday.
Obviously if it looks like a high is coming on, it is ideal to head to Barrier on a SW and come back on a NE, but that is ideal stuff and based on the last couple of weeks of weather, akin to looking for rocking horse poo or unicorn farts. As in things that simply don't happen.
If your going with the missus and kids you can probably have as much fun around Kawau Bay area without the risk of an epic pasting on the way home. Or be flexible and head to Kawau Bay area, if the forecasts firm up do a mish to the Barrier, but don't pin any great expectations on it. If your going with a couple of hard arsed mates, just send it.
A lot to be said for being flexible and adaptive with these current weather patterns. It is not normal weather for this time of year by a long shot.
-
1
-
-
2 hours ago, waikiore said:
The Herald has repeated the already proven false claim that they were both hit by booms, as I suggested lets keep this forum accurate .
Serves you right for reading the Herald then, ay?
What I posted earlier about the mainsheet was a quote from some guy at the CYA, but very surprisingly was via Stuffed. I know the journo's are all on holiday now, and judging by the grammar, MSM is being run by dyslexic 7 year olds, but I was very surprised to get some actual information via an MSM source.
That said, the MSM are loving this, headline grabbing tragedy to add to the shark sightings, dramatic accounts of what the weather forecast is, or repeating Police news on a continuous loop.
-
2
-
Missing.
in MarineTalk
Posted
Maybe, but we don't know. Despite widely circulating details of the individual and their home (distinctive boat they live on) across the media, there's been no indication as to why they are looking for her.
Perhaps it's overdue parking tickets?
Or anchoring in a banned anchoring area.
The point I'm making is that sometimes people just want to be left alone.
And, there is a great irony. Assuming the authorities do have concerns for her mental health and wellbeing, the irony being that it is damn near impossible to access mental health services in this country. Particularly for people that want help, or friends or family members trying to help someone close to them. Then, the authorities in this case appear to be spending considerable effort trying to help someone that wants to be left alone.
So people that desperately want help can't get it, and people that don't want help get chased around and forced to take it, if they like it or not.