K4309
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Posts posted by K4309
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30 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said:
That is against the laws of physics. Namely ohms law.
This is your first misleading statement.
It's physically impossible for a charging circuit to go straight to the absorption voltage regardless of its SoC.
The key word here that you've used is "regardless".
If the battery is "substantially" charged then the absorption voltage "could" be reached within a matter of minutes or maybe even seconds. However if the battery is "substantially" discharged then the absorption voltage will take substantially longer to reach, hours or even days.
Your second misleading statement is that a normal absorption voltage would be 13.8v. This is misleading because you are implying that the bulk phase termination voltage and the absorption voltage are somehow different when infact they are not.
I would need to understand what 'partially charged" meant and the chemistry to be able to assert if this is normal or not.
Eg, assuming a 100ah AGM at a psoc of 99% then yes it would be perfectly normal for the absorption voltage to be reached in a few seconds.
Assuming a 100Ah AGM at 70% SoC then this would be impossible unless the battery was short circuited internally and thus naffed.
While both of these are partially charged batteries the behavior will be different depending on the actual psoc.
Christ you can be argumentative. And splitting hairs.
It is normal for a controller to call for 14.4v in the bulk phase. Weather or not the circuit achieves that voltage is entirely dependent on the battery. BUT THE CONTROLLER CALLS FOR 14.4v. In this thread we have no idea about the battery at all. That doesn't mean what I am saying is misleading. It means we have no idea about the battery.
You can split as many hairs as you want, my point was simply that the OP thought it was a problem that the controller goes to 14.4v, as far as I can tell that is doing what it is supposed to do.
There is so much missing context around what the actual question is, I can't really accept you telling me I'm being misleading in this context. Just trying to answer the guys question, not wanting to be exposed to a physics exam by your uptight and clearly superior self. Get over yourself.
EPever MPPT controller programme settings for context bulk charge = 14.4v.
②Battery Voltage Control Parameters Below parameters are in 12V system at 25 ºC, please double the values in 24V system
Battery type Voltage
Sealed
Gel
Flooded
User
Over Voltage Disconnect Voltage
16.0V
16.0V
16.0V
9～17V
Charging Limit Voltage
15.0V
15.0V
15.0V
9～17V
Over Voltage Reconnect Voltage
15.0V
15.0V
15.0V
9～17V
Equalize Charging Voltage
14.6V
——
14.8V
9～17V
Boost Charging Voltage
14.4V
14.2V
14.6V
9～17V
Float Charging Voltage
13.8V
13.8V
13.8V
9～17V
Boost Reconnect Charging Voltage
13.2V
13.2V
13.2V
9～17V
Low Voltage Reconnect Voltage
12.6V
12.6V
12.6V
9～17V
Under Voltage Warning Reconnect Voltage
12.2V
12.2V
12.2V
9～17V
Under Voltage Warning Voltage
12.0V
12.0V
12.0V
9～17V
Low Voltage Disconnect Voltage
11.1V
11.1V
11.1V
9～17V
Discharging Limit Voltage
10.6V
10.6V
10.6V
9～17V
Equalize Duration
120 min
——
120 min
0～180 min
Boost Duration
120 min
120 min
120 min
10～180 min -
57 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said:
This is misleading.
During bulk phase the current will decrease or stay constant as the voltage increases to the absorption voltage.
When the voltage reaches the absorption voltage the bulk phase is said to have completed and the absorption phase begins.
During the absorption phase the voltage is held at the maximum and the current decreases.
Absorption voltage could be 14.4v.
13.8v is a common but high float voltage and is too low to fully charge any 12v chemistry except LFP.
In the context of this thread, I'm not really sure what is misleading about it. It's not like I've said vaccines are safe and effective, or anything that could be genuinely misleading.
So I may have mixed up some of the finer points of what the current does, I don't think I have, but the main point is the OP thinks there is a problem with his charge controller going to 14.4v. I can't see a problem with that and understand that is what it's supposed to do in the bulk charge phase. Moreso, many charge controllers and smart alternator regulators go directly to the bulk charge voltage at the start of a charging cycle regardless of the SoC of the battery.
Do you see any issue with the OP's charge controller going straight to 14.4v when the battery is only partially charged?
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That photo is handy and explains a lot.
Good to understand you already have a controller (my misunderstanding).
Most batteries undertake bulk charge at 14.4v. If you battery is far from fully charged, then the controller ramping the voltage up to 14.4v is exactly what it is supposed to do.
There should be a chart in the manual with the charging stages and voltages. Or at least a table with voltage settings for charging of various types of batteries (Flooded lead acid, AGM, Gel, Lithium etc) Bulk charge is typically 14.4v, with as much current as you can get in. Absorption stage is typically 13.8v and the current declines as battery resistance increases until it is fully charged, then it will flick over to float stage (maybe 13.2v and basically no current).
Obviously all those voltage settings are user programmable so can be varied to match the exact requirements of the type of battery. It is important to match the exact requirements of the battery. They are also adjusted for battery temp, assuming you have a temp prob on the battery linked into the controller. I'd be surprised if a system of this cost / quality did not have one. Anyway, that means that if the batt temp is substantially different form 25 deg, you will get slightly different voltages for each stage, compensated for temp.
If you aren't running the wind genny at the time of the photo, I'd say the controller and the volt meter are showing your 'resting' battery voltage, those numbers look typical for a partially charged battery.
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Edit above, sorry, I only saw the 100w at 19knts, not the full rated power of 420w (29knts). You will need a 35amp or 40 amp solar controller, not the 10 amp stuff I priced above. 40 amp models are in the $220 (EPever) to $310 range (Victron).
Noting that on the website the 24v and 48v options show a Silent Wind branded charge controller supplied with the wind generator. There isn't a picture of one with the 12v option, but it is listed in the product discrition:
- External hybrid boost charge controller for wind – and solar- energy with multi-function display and integrated electronic/manual stop switchSilentwind PRO 12V - Silentwind (silentwindgenerator.com)
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I was a little bemused at this thread, wondering how the supplier isn't providing technical support. I know sometimes technical support in Eglish as a Second Language can be a tad sub-optimal on occasion (me trying to understand whoflungdung brand cheap but effective lectronic components I've got off Ali Express).
Anyway, on having a look at the website, my understanding (which could be wrong, it has been before) is that you need an external charge controller. Exact same item as for a solar panel. They list them separately on the silent wind website.
The below is the exert from the 'marine' page of silent wind. The voltages you are reporting out of the wind unit sound similar to the random voltages you get out of solar panels. Run them through a solar controller, like an MPPT version, and they will convert them to the ideal voltage for charging the battery, and vary the current dependent on the power (watts) produced by the wind unit.
Disclaimer, I have never had anything to do with wind turbines, so my apologies if I'm wrong.
PS, you can get a basic but reliable 10a EPever Tracer solar controller for $107 EPEVER TRACER 1206AN MPPT Solar Charge Controller - 10A (micromall.co.nz)
or a Victron 10a unit that has a whole load of additional functionality, monitoring and battery preservation / protection features with intergral bluetooth for $110 SmartSolar MPPT 75/10 (12/24V-10A) – AEP Victron Energy Store
PPS, reading that again, should the charge controller come with the Silent Wind?
The Silent Power Blades are produced in carbon fiber, hand-laminated, with great resistance and minimum noise emission, which is the great differentiator of the Silentwind.
The charge controller is external, hybrid (wind and solar energy), has multifunction display and integrated stop switch (electronic / manual).
The parameters can be adjusted directly in the controller or through the application that is available in IOS and Android. Among the available parameters are the brake module, which allows the maximum current adjustment, and the load cut-off voltage module, which regulates the maximum charge voltage of the batteries.
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5 minutes ago, khayyam said:
Penalties can be overcome, but if one boat comes off the foils they might as well just stop the race.
Yes, but as far as I can tell, the whole point of match racing is to try and mess up the other boat, rather than to try and go as fast as you can. Hence, if you count the penalties, you get a get a handle on who is messing with who the most.
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1 hour ago, Addem said:
While the old 12m races were long and slow by comparison, the technical difficulty of sailing them well was demonstrable which made them compelling viewing for the purist but not much so for the novice.
I think the catamaran version took viewer engagement to another level for both novice and purist
But these boats are hardly worth watching. We can't see what's going on and can't appreciate the tech or tactics. The graphics on screen are uninformative and commentators don't know much about sailing. Mostly it's about watch who wins the start and then wait for the next race.
But I suppose we can never go back
My whole family will sit down and watch sail GP together, including Miss 11 and Mr 9. Miss 11 will go find the pre race previews / video blogg thingies and we consume all media that Sail GP can produce. She keeps track of where and when the next event is and we look forward to a race weekend, checking time zones for what time the coverage will be live, etc.
Unfortunately Sail GP is taking a break while the AC is on, so we tried watching some the other day.
The onwater graphics don't even tell you anything about the wind. Not which way it's going, nor its strength or speed. We watched the start, most of the time we didn't even know where the line was, then, just as they crossed the start line, they cut to an ad break.
The onboard footage shakes so bad I can't watch it, where as SailGP just go some Go-pros so the images are stabilised...
They have a wind graphic that shows you a heat map of wind strength on the course, but still no speed or direction.
I've not been able to work out the tactics, noting it is match racing and not fleet racing. As far as I can tell the best thing to do is keep score of the numbers of penalties, but they don't track those on the coverage either.
The highlights footage is simply incomprehensible to watch. It jumps around from incident to incident, but there is no context if it is even the same race, if they are at the top mark or the bottom, how far through the race, etc.
The foiling boats mean nothing, as we have no comprehension of speed on screen. There are no crew to see as they are all hidden under fairings. At least on the Sail GP they still need to actually swap sides when they tack or gybe.
All together incredibly frustrating trying to follow it.
Anyway, both kids declared the AC as boring, Miss 11 started reading a book straight after the first start it was that dull. It's getting to the point that if Mr 9 doesn't do his jobs (empty dishwasher etc) I'm going to threaten him with making him watch some America's Cup with me.... As in watch AC is some sort of punishment.
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2 hours ago, LBD said:
Has the incident been captured on video?
The crane I watched free spool down from 15m until the drum was empty, well after the load hit the ground in the middile of a dozen or so staff, some suffering minor injuries was far from boring, it was.....very very exciting!
Having to dismiss the crane driver after he tested positive for Methamphetamine did not trouble me in the least...
No,
But strangely I've been on a site where the crane driver turned up basically still pissed from the night before, and his work mates dobbed him in before he could even get in his cab. Funny how the people that are at risk of having the sky fall on their heads take a keen interest in the health and wellbeing (or otherwise fitness for work) of the one that holds heavy objects up in the sky.
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2 hours ago, darkside said:
Any word on what failed? 6m is some drop.
Yep that was some pass on the Italians
Reading the official statement on the AC website, sounds like it was the wire, as in the crane lifting wire.
The crane is supplied by a third party and is operated by ETNZ staff, but that a representative of the crane supplier was going to have a meeting with ETNZ.
Being the wire, there is of course questions around sabotage. My first thought was that, surely security around getting into the compound would be high. If a bad actor got into the compound, wouldn't you just go and bugger with the boat itself? I'm assuming it is the very boring and less newsworthy poor maintenance.
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20 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said:
What did you use and get signed off/certified for the leak proof bulkhead fitting where the flexible hose exits the locker?
I haven't actually done that yet, as have a few jobs ahead of it, but the two options my gasfitter gave me was A), a proper grommet, or B.) any kind of sealant I want, as in Silicon, Dowsil etc.
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22 minutes ago, Psyche said:
and every bulkhead it passes through requires a fitting with two joints (one either side) if I understand the regs correctly?
It gets a bit murky.
If you have a single appliance you can use the flexible gas hose, available from Burnsco at $12/m or from the gas fitter at $4/m. (AS/NZS1561 class C by memory) You have to protect it from chafe at all points, so anywhere it does anything, like go through a bulkhead, you put it in some cable duct (the black plastic flexibly one, not rigid PVC).
If you have a 'complex' system as defined by the regs, then you need copper pipe. That is a system with more than one appliance. The copper pipe needs a different style of protection at bulkheads. As my system is 'simple' I didn't go down the rabbit hole to find out what that is. That, and I don't have any bulkheads on my 2.5m pipe run, just the exist hole out of the gas locker (which is still considered a bulkhead I believe, that one needs to be leak proof.
The only issue I had with the 'simple' system and flexible pipe is that 3 out of 4 gas fitters told me I still needed copper pipe and stainless flexible sections at each end. Even when I queried the regs and quoted the clause to them.
The great irony is that, when discussing gas certificates with my insurer, all they said was "as long as it's not copper, cause that corrodes and leaks and we don't like copper"... I understand to get the copper pipe up to the same performance standard as the $4/m flexible pipe, they now anneal it in a rubber sheath, so it looks, err, like the flexible pipe.
The only issue with the $4/m flexible pipe is it needs to be replaced every 7 years. Which is the validity of the gas certificate anyway. I don't really have a problem with that requirement.
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45 minutes ago, Psyche said:
Most people just ignore the gas issue until they need to deal with it for insurance etc. Gas is a lot safer than people suggest, how many houses have gas appliances that rely on an install way back in the dark ages? On boats its all about confined spaces and leaks, the typical explosion is waking up and putting the kettle on and boom. For small Kiwi yachts a sensible DIY job that follows good practice is safe, most (all!) of us haven't blown ourselves up and there is no way most of the installations would pass current regulations. The portable camping gas stoves are probably more dangerous but still we have to abide by the rules and the marine gasfitting business seems to be very guilty of boat owner = lets charge whatever we like since they have no alternative.
Larger complex boats with furniture that cannot be removed or provide access to inspect gas lines and joints are another story,
This.
All the explosions, fires and deaths I've heard of have been from portable gas appliances. Either those old portable LPG heaters, or butane stoves used in confined spaces, like tents.
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11 hours ago, bigal.nz said:
For one reason or another we have had to replace our Gas Solenoid and regulator. Unfortunately although we got the same solenoid (BEP) I didnt take a picture of the old setup.
Does it go BOTTLE----SOLENOID-----REGULATOR--->
Burnsco happily sold me a hose with a regulator at the BOTTLE end, but this must be for BBQs or something as if the above is correct I need a regulator on the other side of the solenoid.
Yes, it goes bottle, solenoid, regulator.
BUT, technically (legally) you aren't able to replace the solenoid yourself. You need to get a certified gas fitter to do it, and pay the $1,000 to re-issue the gas certificate.
It is questionable if you require a solenoid for safety purposes. Some gas fitters say you don't, some say you do. That is with respect to having two gas sniffers interlinked with a solenoid. Of course if you want want so you don't have to physically go to the gas locker to turn the gas off, then knock yourself out.
Oh, and if any other part of your system isn't complaint with the current regs, a gas fitter will make you change the whole lot so that he can re-install your solenoid. That includes replacing your stove if it doesn't have auto-flame out on all elements. And replacing any flexible hose that are older than 7 years.
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2 hours ago, Bad Kitty said:
Superyachts use a different system for calculating stability, the boat would have had a full stability book, like any ship. It’s not a clear comparison to say “it wouldn’t meet Cat 3”
No, it's not a clear comparison, you are correct.
BUT, this Superyacht (with the tallest mast in the world) couldn't dip it's mast head in the water and recover, where as any boat in NZ that meets Cat 5 (and Cat 3) can.
It appears that the result of that is the boat is 50m under water, its wealthy owner and his daughter are dead, along with several others. Noting of course that what I am saying is completely uneducated assumptions on the interweb.
I guess you could say its just like any cruise ship, or other large commercial ship. They can't roll to 90 degs and recover either. The only difference being no other commercial type of ship has a 75m tall lever that can easily make that vessel roll to 90 degrees. (which, as an aside, would appear to be why every vessel that does have a lever on top has enough lead underneath so it can roll to 90 degrees and recover).
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6 minutes ago, Psyche said:
any idea what this means?
I think this is going to be key to the skipper not being charged / getting off.
From that article posted above by the previous skipper, it sounds like they have a stability manual for all scenario's, like exactly what sails to have up in what wind strength. I assume much like how most of us know when we need to reef the main, and that we can use the number 1 jib up to X knots, the blade jib up to Y knots, and that you can't (or at least shouldn't) put the A2 up if its blowing dogs of chains, etc.
Being a 460 tonne yacht, instead of just letting the crew see what she can handle, the document all of this using the design data and possibly dynamic modelling, CFD analysis, or at least the sailmaker software for sail design, healing forces and structural function of the rig.
I'll bet a good bottle of whiskey though that all the analysis and the stability / operating manual did not consider what happens in the freak event of a violent downburst or waterspout.
In short, the crew have a manual / standard operating procedure and probably aren't allowed to make the boat heel more than X degrees while sailing. IF they did, that would be taking outside the operating limits.
Given they were an anchor, I can't see how they could have taken her outside of the operating limits.
In this way, the designers / builders can make a boat with a very low AVS and an even lower downflooding angle. To make that safe, they write a manual that says the crew can't lean the boat over more than a little bit. In normal operation the crew can meet those requirements. In violent downdraft / water spout, everything is completely beyond the crew's control, boat capsizes and sinks.
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1 hour ago, CarpeDiem said:
I found this written by Tad Roberts:
The head of the Italian Sea Group, parent of the builder Perini, has stated Bayesian had positive stability to 73 degrees with the board up and 88 degrees with the board down.
In the same post, written by Tad Roberts I find:
The boat would meet or exceed stability regulatory requirements with the centreboard retracted and sails down.
CONFUSING!!!!
I think the stability requirements are the classification society requirements, not the requirements as per the laws of physics to keep it afloat.
I know it is only a song, but it does remind me of the esteemed and highly regarded data by one Mr Frederick Dagg, that the boat met the minimum crewing requirements, of one, and had very stringent design and materials requirements. No cardboard. No cardboard derivatives...
Jokes aside, the only plausible explanation I can think of for a boat like that sinking in a water spout is that it was laid flat, exceeded it's AVS and capsized. We do know (without reference to FB or MSM experts) that it had the tallest mast in the world, the mast was alloy (so not carbon, and comparatively heavy), and that of the 12 or 15 sister ships, the rest are all ketches, and therefore have lower C of G of the rig.
We know it is entirely plausible a water spout or down burst can lay a yacht like that over flat, cause we've seen it on CCTV from Westhaven.
The AVS data appears to come from the Chairman of Italian Sea Group. So it all adds up. The only inconguity in all of that is that the Chairman of Italian Sea Group seems to think an AVS of 73 degs is good, where as it couldn't even get Cat 5 in NZ, hence why the yacht his company built is 50m under water and we are all talking about it.
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1 hour ago, harrytom said:
read it went stern first,does that means rear launching deck open?
I read that it went down bow first.
What we can conclude from this is there is an even chance that your sources is right and my source is wrong, or:
Your source is wrong and my source is right.
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50 minutes ago, LBD said:
Was on the news... local fishermen were all prepared.
You wouldn't be implying MSM is any more reliable than FB?
That particular weather forecaster, Lowinski, also made statements that all the passengers should have been dragged out of bed at 4am, put in Lifejackets and made to stand in the rain, as a safety precaution. Not sure what qualifies a weather forecaster to make such statements, other than a PhD in Hindsight.
PS, it is curious to note that an increasing majority of MSM stories and leads are now based off information X'ed on X. The rest of MSM content appears to be AI produced now.
I do understand the mirth at 'sources on FB', but it doesn't conversely mean sources on MSM are reliable. Some are, many aren't.
PPS, I imagine the local fishermen were simply looking out the window, the one I saw interviewed had gone down to the harbour to see if it was calm enough to go for a fish, i.e. 'local observations'. Instead of using the latest high tech weather satellite, he may have been using a mark one eyeball
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If it is leaking air, you can get a product you put inside the tubes and it self seals all the leaks. I think Sailors sell it. It is an Merican product.
Alternatively, there are loads of the same product for bicycles. Smaller quantities but loads cheaper, and stocked by a wide array of bicycle shops. I had a good look into it but never used it, having managed to find a pin-hole leak and patch it.
If you are just worried about the exterior appearance of the tubes, I don't think there is anything you can do about that, accept sew chaps for the boat.
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On 23/08/2024 at 9:13 PM, K4309 said:
Bayesian AVS with the keel up is 73deg,
but keel down doesn't help much, AVS 88deg.
Contrast, That wouldn't even get YNZ Cat 5.
Refer YNZ safety regulations:
"Limit of Positive Stability"
Cat3 - 100deg
Cat4 - 95 deg
Cat5 - 95 deg,
And:
6.02(k) d:
For yachts complying with Category 4 and 5,
it may be demonstrated that compliance is
achieved by demonstrating a physical pulldown test in which the masthead shall be
pulled down until it touches the surface of
the water. The yacht will maintain a positive
righting moment at all times during the test
Bayesian couldn't achieve that, with an AVS of 88 deg, the mast could not reach the water in a pull down test without the boat capsizing...AVS data from the Financial Times, story quoting the Chairman of Italian Sea Group, which owns Perini Navi.
Bayesian maker says crew should have had time to rescue passengers (ft.com)
Def not a seaworthy vessel IT, if it can't make NZ Cat 5.
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14 minutes ago, aardvarkash10 said:
Agree with your sentiment K, or as I understand it.
To move away from geopolitics and into media and advertising, the reason we are in thrall with this is that we are fed it.
I'd expect interest on a site like crew or anarchy, but the wider interest globally is the result of media selling advertising. Nothing else.
There is no deep public interest in the narrow subject area of "billionaires dying in unusual circumstances".
There is, however, a fatburg of schadenfreude and celebrity fascination that makes this stuff a goldmine for ratings.
Absolutely Aardvark.
I understand where Rats is coming from too, it is a bit of a first world problem having your superyacht sink, especially in contrast to so many of the world's humanitarian issues. The part I am interested in is the how bit, which is relevant to a sailing forum, I'm hoping.
It is certainly an intriguing story that the guy died on his sinking superyacht whilst celebrating winning a huge fraud trail on said superyacht with his lawyers and supporters, the day after his co accused got killed being hit by a car. That is just red meat for the MSM and click-baiting platforms. I haven't checked out the conspiracy theories, and to be honest, I don't really know where to go to find them, but on this one I bet they are good.
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Silentwind generator
in TechTalk
Posted
If it is against the laws of physics, how come the OP's charge controller is doing it?