Electric Power

[Guest]

I was refering to Wheels putdown of greenies. This is a forum, not a university and I'll speak however I want.

[Guest]

yes I agree Dan. Ther's a broad range in the Green movement. I still maintain they are mostly heroes and certainly have my respect. In regard to big business, sure there are good people amongst the assholes. Have a go at Ross Garnout's talk in Oz. really big business seems to not care for anything but profits, not even Patriotic let alone concerned about the environment.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-28/r ... ss/5123932

[Guest]

I'm not arguing Motorbike, stating it as I see it. Wheels comment gave me the shits.

There's crap flying in all directions in regards to the Green movement and big business. I'm pretty sure we won't be worried about jobs when we cannot breath.

[Guest]

Since Wheels made the first comment, perhaps we should ask him whether he was referring to the Green Party, a political identity, or "greenies" as something more general that he could define for us. Might clean up the discussion a little.

[Guest]

"The days are changing and changing fast. You need to narrow your focus, stop using namby pamby nothing words like 'greenie' and be more respective of those who are actually trying to make the world a cleaner place, be they an individual or a company. To generalize as you do helps no one nor the planet."

Surely you were speaking to Wheels there KM. But generalizing simply can't be helped in this type of discussion. Go root yourself and sprout flowers.

[Guest]

Hers a yacht thats been converted...not sure its got enough range or power,but then there are always the sails..

 

http://currentsunshine.com/?page_id=10

[wheels 543]

Firstly, this quote

As usual Wheels, your trying to be popular by sucking up to certain people.

Wow!

I have some comments I would like to make, none of them nice and so I think I will just keep my mouth shut.

 

Greenies, Greens, pink polka dots, I don't really care. What gives me that "proverbial comment" you made BBay is that whatever they want to be called, Many of the "followers" tend to be uninformed idiots (for instance, the famous story of having protestors sign up for the banning of Dihydrogen Monoxide, because there is so much of it going into our atmosphere and so many people are killed by it each year) and the leaders tend to be lying, Scaremongering Hypocrites.

And to prove my point about uninformed idiots, you have immediately placed me and several others participating here into a group (in your mind) that we are of the ones that don't care about our Planet, just because we are not "greenies", as defined by following some particular political belief. Well having got to know several of the members here, I can actually say that at least the ones I know are very passionate about their Planet. Ooops, sorry, am I sucking up???

And to prove the second point, what about these Green leaders telling blatant lies about the deepsea oil drilling in NZ. They are leading those uninformed sheep to believe that we would have another Gulf of Mexico on our door step if drilling goes ahead, which is just plain wrong.

For me, because that is the only one I can speak for, I try to inform myself as much as possible about a topic. I may not agree with anothers view, like many of yours BBay, but I respect your right to have your opinion, not like I find with many "greenies" or pinkies or whatever you want to call them, that try and ram their views down others throats and really have no education on the subject they are ramming, at all. Plus they tend to be paranoid in that they think all Corporations in the world are greedy and want to screw our Planet, just because there are one or two that have.

[Guest]

via email from a solar/electric supporter

 

Hi David,

in reply to wheels re extra grid capacity to recharge the electric cars, Tesla overseas is using solar powered superchargers, BP NZ has solar on it's roof canopy for the station, though I note it only runs a third of their power requirements, that is only powers their loads during the day when it is sunny, it is a grid tie situation.

 

In Aussie, this chap and his wife run their holiday home and electric car off Solar and batteries, and in their town based house they use a solar grid tie unit so they don't buy any power in town unless it is winter.

 

 

 

 

 

http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... d3aecbe904

 

 

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/ ... D6fj257468 is another instalation that powers a chaps house and recharges the imiev I think.

 

move the cursor over the blue squares to see each day's production in KW.

 

 

For us, we are putting in solar at work, specifically to recharge the electric car, and for our usage, we only need 2 Kw for 1 hour to recharge the car for the short trips we do each day, but have sized the solar panels at 7 Kw to allow for winter days where the panels only put out a third of their power, so even at only say 1 hour of sunshine we'd get enough power and that will easily give the 2 Kw on a overcast day, none on a wet day though.

 

At Home we are putting in a 7 Kw unit for our house, and at our solar farm we plan on adding 2 Kw per year for a total of 20 Kw over 10 years installing, giving approx 100 Kw output per day. Basing on five hours a day reasonable sun.

 

So for our electric car, no problems recharging, and we plan on setting up chargers on main tourist routes in the South Island, so that a hired electric car can go pretty much most places, if people don't mind adding another hour per 100 Km to the trip.

 

Most people would go for a petrol car and a no stop trip, but people who really like electric cars don't mind the wait. Not paying for fuel is a bonus, and what one saves on fuel can pay for a meal while waiting for the car to recharge.

 

another solar powered house and two electric cars.

 

 

 

 

http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... use#p13239

 

So, Yep, if one has the money to install a solar set up, currently about $ 2.50 a watt installed plus $ 1 per watt for the inverter. Batteries if off grid power is used, like in areas where powerlines are expensive to install, are approx $1 per stored watt, for lithiums.

 

So for a set up to power an imiev charger, off grid, say overnight while one sleeps, it would cost, approx $ 17, 000 for the solar panels, the inverter rated at 2, 500 watts pure sine wave is $ 2, 500 and say 20 Kw stored power to provide a buffer for the 16 Kw car battery, is $ 20, 000. All up around $ 39, 500 installed.

 

Compare that to the $ 64, 000 in fuel we have spent over 9 years ! Based on the same figures, the wee electric car will have the solar power paid off in about 7 years, and then on, free running.

 

And that is if we completely drained the battery each day traveling 100 Kms, Most days we only go 30 kms so we could use a much smaller solar setup and be fine, with a shorter payback of about 2 years.

 

So yes, electric cars have their limitations, and you would have to by a electric ford ranger or similar to tow the boat, but for around town one passanger or work use, no problem.

 

So, if everybody who brought an electric car, also set up solar on their roof or backyard, then there would be no infrastructure improvements on the grid needed.

 

Already we are in talks with a country service station and they are pleased to find that they would make more per electric car recharge than what they get via selling a tank of petrol, as they only get 4 cents per litre and a recharge costs the driver about $3 plus while there are no electric car customers and the sun is shining, the service station fridges, freezers and lighting are all being run by solar.

 

David should set up a free charger outside where he displays the houses for sale in work window, if he works in town, and then drivers will look longer while waiting for the car to charge.

 

Kind regards,

[Guest]

I love the emailers plans and are heading that way myself but you can't call solar 'free' nor 'green'. Yes you don't pay a powerco but those that don't do still have to buy far from cheap battery banks. I'm hunting for 4 big beasts at the moment and hells bells I think I'm going to have to sell one of the D's into white slavery to pay for them. Also a lot of this gear has a limited and sometimes short life span. Solar panels are general OK for 20-25 years before they degrade to a point of annoying. A hydro dam can and have lasted over a century.

 

My last battery bank cost me as close as $10 per week and will cost somewhere in the $2400-3000 to replace, more if I get some of the more dedicated battery types. Yes there is a small % in that cost that would be taken up by R&D as it was the first go and we have learned much since then. I also now have 6 large lumps containing some rather nasty stuff to dispose of.

 

It would be interesting to look at the respective lifetime costs of all the options as I suspect at the moment solar isn't as good as many would like to think. In reality fossil fuel is cheaper than dirt cheap. Most of the costs we pay are added on Govt taxes which distorts the true cost, as do the subsidies of things knot fossil fuel.

 

Then you have to consider what happens to all the old solar stuff when it's dead, some of the stuff is pretty dam nasty so that has to be disposed of and you can bet your house on the fact that sooner or later there will be big costs to cover that disposal. That's excluding the environmental costs of the crap being disposed of.

 

I'm sure it'll change over time but at the moment it's still a bit for enthusiasts so trying to nag people into it is just the same as trying to get your kids (or me) in to eating brussel Sprouts, sorry it ain't gonna happen and the more you try the more they go No. Even worse is chastising those you perceive as knot being green as often you are seen as hypocritical tossers, which is a big problem, if not the biggest problem, the Green party faces.... amongst others.

[banaari 27]

We were off grid for about 5 years... if was doing it again, and we probably will, will be seeing if we can't use Nickel-Iron batteries. Supposedly indestructible, don't degrade... but do have some issues of their own... such as probably having to fabricate 'em from scratch since no one seems to make them anymore. Energy density's lower than Lead-acid, but who cares if it's a fixed installation.

[Guest]

I have read that oil is fairly heavily subsidized, but was never sure what that meant, so went to the all knowing wikipedia and go tthis

 

Energy subsidies are measures that keep prices for consumers below market levels or for producers above market levels, or reduce costs for consumers and producers.[citation needed] Energy subsidies may be direct cash transfers to producers, consumers, or related bodies, as well as indirect support mechanisms, such as tax exemptions and rebates, price controls, trade restrictions, and limits on market access. They may also include energy conservation subsidies.[citation needed] The development of today's major modern energy industries have all relied on substantial subsidy support.

 

The global fossil fuel subsidies were $523 billion and renewable energy subsidies $88 billion in 2011.

 

Is that globally?

 

Anyway - chuck those back into the mix plus what are called "externalised costs" and the price of oil goes up.

 

But the truth remains that even if a magic bullet were to appear tomorrow it would take at the very least 10 years to convert the world's transportation away from oil, so we are stuck with it for a while.

However I also don't see that as a reason to stick our heads in the sand, it is important to keep pushing the boundaries, that's when fun stuff starts to happen.

[wheels 543]

Now I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. If I agree with anything, I am seen as a suck up and if I disagree, I am knocking Green Technology and giving people diarrhea. Dang, what to do.

 

To the "emailer", FYI, Pete Yealands of Yealands estate winery in Marlborough is in the process of setting up one of the biggest Solar Panel installs in NZ. Good on him. I applaud that.

[Guest]

Your frothing at the mouth Wheels.

[wheels 543]

I have read that oil is fairly heavily subsidized, but was never sure what that meant,

It is in many countries Squid. It depends on what oil from where. Like Venezuela, which is extremely heavily subsidized. But NZ does not have any subsidies apart from Diesel having no road tax on it.

 

Back to Batteries, I think the only thing sitting in the pipeline so to speak that can take battery technology further forward, is Nano technology. Still very new and so possibilities and potentials are as big as the Horizon on a clear day. We are even going to see Nano technology in rope in the not too distant future. Nanotubes are opening up some exciting ideas, but many are still far away from being delivered to the Public as of yet. The only downside that I see, is that Scientists seem to be stuck in the Lithium battery area and are only looking at ways of improving charge time and capacity. The danger I see in this is that China is holding the strings on Lithium production and I think that puts the rest of the world in a tricky place.

[Guest]

Wasn't there some nickle batteries that a car manufacturer patented that were the ants pants.

[rossd 16]

Quote:

 

I have read that oil is fairly heavily subsidized, but was never sure what that meant,

 

It is in many countries Squid. It depends on what oil from where. Like Venezuela, which is extremely heavily subsidized. But NZ does not have any subsidies apart from Diesel having no road tax on it.

 

Incorrect. NZ does have subsidies. There are 2 types, the pump or consumption side and the supply or exploration side. We have none of the former but estimated 46 Million for 2013. of the later.

Timm Groser has been in Copenhagan at Climate talks pushing for reductions in worldwide fossel fuel sudsides of $544 billion annually. The blog link below explains an interesting exchange between a young female Norwegian reporter to Groser re NZs subdidies . He didn't answer! With NZs subsidies you and me are contributing 46 million annually to the most wealthy companies on the planet!

 

http://www.subsidyreform.com/2013/11/fr ... ate-talks/

[wheels 543]

But isn't that subsidies to developing nations? We don't have our fuel here in NZ subsidized as far as I am aware.

Or have I misunderstood what Squid was getting at.

[Guest]

What I gathered after reading the article was that NZ subsidizes the oilcos to the tune of $46m per year, so yes wheels, the consumer isn't susidized, but the companies are.

 

Most consumer subsidies occur in developing, oil exporting nations, e.g. Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Indonesia.

 

The article points out that NZ, via our govt, is supporting the removal of those subsidies (to the detriment of the citizens?) while supporting our subsidy to the oilcos. Which occur in the form of tax breaks etc for them to come here and drill. The argument being that if these and other subsidies to oil did not exist and there were a level playing field more $$$ would be put into researching and developing alternatives.

[wheels 543]

Righty. Now I understand. I guess it comes down to giving a tax subsidy to get the Oilco's to take our Oil out of the ground and we at least earn something. As long as in the end we come out on top. As a past Boss used to say, "half of something is better than all of nothing".

[Guest]

But NZ does not have any subsidies apart from Diesel having no road tax on it.

Oh yes it does, the difference is only in how the punters pay it.

 

Look around and see what isn't subsidised to some degree. Over 70% of the population are directly subsided by the Govt and most think that's goods, most sports to some degree, many assorted industries to assorted degrees. In fact the list of non-subsidised things would be tiny compared to those that are.

 

And knot all subsidies are bad, in fact many are good in many ways. A simple example - The Hobbit movie subsidy was widely attacked. The Govt didn't give a cent to WB, they just didn't have to pay a smallish % of some taxes. But in return for that that movie paid for over 100,000 nights in hotels in NZ, more than 9500 domestic flights, gawd knows how much food another stuff that would knot have happened without a, comparatively small, tax break. Was the few million we didn't get in nor pay out worth all the jobs and income generated?? Most would say yes if they actually thought about it.

 

I can't see why we need to subsidise Oil Cos but it maybe a simple case similar to the Hobbit thinking. We forgo a small amount of tax but in return have many working, consuming and paying tax when if there was no subsidy it's possible that the, XX thousand people employed may very well be on the dole instead. As Wheels mentioned, this subsidy could mean we are getting at least a proportion of something rather than getting all of nothing.

 

As a FYI - I know NZers who get taxed by the NZ Govt on income derived from other countries (can be read as tax payers??) via Oil Co subsidies and/or fiddles around oil. Don't think it's all a one way street as it does flow both ways............... even if I suspect it's a 2 lane road heading out and only a single heading back in.

 

You have to look at the big picture, don't do what seems to be the new and stupid short term shallow NZ thinking by only looking at one piece in what is a very big puzzle.

 

The argument being that if these and other subsidies to oil did not exist and there were a level playing field more $$$ would be put into researching and developing alternatives.

If the alternatives are even close to being viable and/or profitable funding will flow to them. The world is awash with coin looking for a place to go to be turned into more coin. The Oil subsidies sure don't help but they aren't excluding sound viable R&D into oil free technologies.

 

Right lunch done so back to the carnage. Anyone feel like subsidising a soon to be cute 30fter that doesn't run on oil??