Let the whingeing begin

[markm 30]

Assuming the rumours are correct, Time to stir.

 

Perhaps I'm a cynic but if anyone thinks Larry et al are doing this for the good of the cup as distinct from the good of Larry's chances of winning they're delusional.

 

All you can say is AC, business as usual, it isn't like 99.99% of all defenders ever haven't tried to manipulate it in their own favour before, I would have thought though they could have been a little more subtle about it, still perhaps Larry's been trained in the Ernesto School of Subtlety.

 

The sad bit is how few serious competitors they'll get, again if people think the Extreme 40 circuit is the basis for challengers they're on drugs, not even quality drugs. Extreme 40s are certainly entertaining enough, and I'll conceed they are more serious than say professional wrestling but a starting platform for the AC? Not even the French take it very seriously, what more can I say.

 

The reality is there are only about three design houses that could take on the job without starting effectively from scratch, fewer when it comes to the rigid wings, two of those would even be debatable and two are already in larry's pocket.

 

The number of people currently up to speed in both match racing and driving large multihulls is about the same, and no surprises, most of those are in Larry's pocket as well.

 

No doubt the likes of Coxcreek think I'm a winging monohull luddite, never mind, notwithstanding that I contend it's a pretty blatent attempt to rig a win in the cup and after the last few years, that's not what's needed.

 

Soft sailed multis would have been a much better interim move if the multi path was intended for reasons other than the defenders benefit,. May or may not be the right long term direction but the mess Ernie and Larry have made of the cup means now isn't the time to go that way. You want a good fair competitive cup with plenty of players and this isn't going to do it.

 

Oh and for *** sake, can we lose the motors this time, I know their sponsor is BMW but really?

[Guest Brucey]

Assuming the rumours are correct, Time to stir.

 

Perhaps I'm a cynic but if anyone thinks Larry et al are doing this for the good of the cup as distinct from the good of Larry's chances of winning they're delusional.

 

All you can say is AC, business as usual, it isn't like 99.99% of all defenders ever haven't tried to manipulate it in their own favour before, I would have thought though they could have been a little more subtle about it, still perhaps Larry's been trained in the Ernesto School of Subtlety.

 

The sad bit is how few serious competitors they'll get, again if people think the Extreme 40 circuit is the basis for challengers they're on drugs, not even quality drugs. Extreme 40s are certainly entertaining enough, and I'll conceed they are more serious than say professional wrestling but a starting platform for the AC? Not even the French take it very seriously, what more can I say.

 

The reality is there are only about three design houses that could take on the job without starting effectively from scratch, fewer when it comes to the rigid wings, two of those would even be debatable and two are already in larry's pocket.

 

The number of people currently up to speed in both match racing and driving large multihulls is about the same, and no surprises, most of those are in Larry's pocket as well.

 

No doubt the likes of Coxcreek think I'm a winging monohull luddite, never mind, notwithstanding that I contend it's a pretty blatent attempt to rig a win in the cup and after the last few years, that's not what's needed.

 

Soft sailed multis would have been a much better interim move if the multi path was intended for reasons other than the defenders benefit,. May or may not be the right long term direction but the mess Ernie and Larry have made of the cup means now isn't the time to go that way. You want a good fair competitive cup with plenty of players and this isn't going to do it.

 

Oh and for *** sake, can we lose the motors this time, I know their sponsor is BMW but really?

 

There is no reason to take 3 steps backwards just so TNZ or anyone else can catch up.

 

In fact I think you do them a diservice, they will be up to speed quicker than most people realize, these are profesional sailors used to running very advanced accelerated development programs quite succesfully.

 

Design is an issue, but everyone would have been starting from scratch with a 70 mono too, so shouldnt be any difference in cost. The serious AC teams will be ther, sure some also rans who may have been easybeats and made up the numbers wont get the sponsorship, but hey, its tight times out there, it will only be good teams who can attract sponsors anyway.

 

I agree about the motors though, thats not yacht racing.

 

Just lie back and enjoy it, after two cups in multis youl wonder how it was ever in leaners.

[Guest]

The translation is not clear to me about motors. I dislike the stinkers too but I interpret it to meaning some sort of motor (could be electric) to lift appendages (foils) - and maybe on shore ones to lift and lower the hard wings - because you're not going to be able to keep those things erect at night with a rising wind.

There are already numbers of huge maxi multihulls handling sails and foils without motors ... so why include them on smaller 22 metre version? Yes, I'm whinger too.

[Guest]

Everyone here needs to steer away from the type of boat. Lazza and co said they want to bring the AC to the non-sailing world so the boat is pretty much irrelevant. What they do with what ever boats they use is going to be the cruncher, get it right and they will achieve their goals, get all twisted up on which boat to use and they won't. Get out there with seriously complex mega buck machines and it could actually prove to be counter productive, no matter if it has 1, 2 or 30 hulls.

 

The type of boat they use is only important to a fair whack but knot all of the already into sailing world.

 

A 4th here also saying No to motors.

[Clipper 343]

multis is good, motors are bad, wings are bad.

[ScottiE 174]

why are wings bad - they've been on the C-class cats for nearly 30years, off shore boats (to a lesser plan form extent) for at least 20 years. The only issue would seem to be economy of scale - which is surely irrelevant at this level.

[Guest]

multis is good, motors are bad, wings are bad.

 

Motors vs Gorrillas

 

How can you 'purists' justify your 'no motor' call?

 

What place do gorrillas have in yachting?

>Only one; to spin handles, or pull on halyards or sheets if you can't afford the handles.

 

At what cost do the gorrillas come on a proff campaign and a powerful 70'r?

>250k+pa each plus food, accom and treats?

>What does a pedestal cost? 50k ea?

>How many pedestals on a 70' Multi? 2,3 or 4?

>How many gorriallas and pedstals does that make?

>Lets be conservative and say 3 pedestals and 6 gorrillas - feck that is a lot of money!

>Christ! What do they weigh? 600kg+ if you got the cheap ones

>Isn't one key to a fast mult or monohull: light weight?

 

A motor or two is logical it has to be lighter, faster and cheaper.

No matter whether you are trying to spin winches, trim wings or adjust foils.

 

As to the purists, who say everythng should be manual, what a load of crap.

Throw away your winches, billies, cleats, instruments, start watch, batteries etc.

Heck the 'cost' of yachting would come down... nobody would want to go sailing, it would be too hard.

 

OK, for those of you who are not at the formula one end of the sport, don't have to pay for your crew, or don't care about having the lightest boat possible.... if you really need to find a job for your big ugly mates so you can justify taking them sailing... I suppose it is ok to keep the manual winches.

[Guest]

I hear what you're saying Paddy ... but the thing about hard wings is that the loads are reduced; look at the marvelous C Class, one crew trims that 300sq.fi.wing with a very low purchase system - just doesn't compare to a strung out, terrifyingly loaded, conventional soft sail sheeting/vang systems (which are usually hydraulic on larger boats) .... therefore, therefore, you don't need a front row pack to wind the things up. Still think the motor thing is unclear at this early stage - the wings will have to be dropped at night and motors would be very useful then - we'll know more later.

[Guest]

I hear what you're saying Paddy ... but the thing about hard wings is that the loads are reduced; look at the marvelous C Class, one crew trims that 300sq.fi.wing with a very low purchase system - just doesn't compare to a strung out, terrifyingly loaded, conventional soft sail sheeting/vang systems (which are usually hydraulic on larger boats) .... therefore, therefore, you don't need a front row pack to wind the things up. Still think the motor thing is unclear at this early stage - the wings will have to be dropped at night and motors would be very useful then - we'll know more later.

 

You don't really want to start the wing conversation....

Mike Drummond reckoned they were being kind keeping the trimmers on BMW ORACLE .

It really was 'sail by numbers'.

 

Mind you they did have the Code O to look after!

[Clipper 343]

multis is good, motors are bad, wings are bad.

 

Motors vs Gorrillas

 

How can you 'purists' justify your 'no motor' call?

 

What place do gorrillas have in yachting?

>Only one; to spin handles, or pull on halyards or sheets if you can't afford the handles.

 

At what cost do the gorrillas come on a proff campaign and a powerful 70'r?

>250k+pa each plus food, accom and treats?

>What does a pedestal cost? 50k ea?

>How many pedestals on a 70' Multi? 2,3 or 4?

>How many gorriallas and pedstals does that make?

>Lets be conservative and say 3 pedestals and 6 gorrillas - feck that is a lot of money!

>Christ! What do they weigh? 600kg+ if you got the cheap ones

>Isn't one key to a fast mult or monohull: light weight?

 

A motor or two is logical it has to be lighter, faster and cheaper.

No matter whether you are trying to spin winches, trim wings or adjust foils.

 

As to the purists, who say everythng should be manual, what a load of crap.

Throw away your winches, billies, cleats, instruments, start watch, batteries etc.

Heck the 'cost' of yachting would come down... nobody would want to go sailing, it would be too hard.

 

OK, for those of you who are not at the formula one end of the sport, don't have to pay for your crew, or don't care about having the lightest boat possible.... if you really need to find a job for your big ugly mates so you can justify taking them sailing... I suppose it is ok to keep the manual winches.

 

I strongly disagree Paddy O. I thought sailing ws a sport, and thats how I justify the 'no motors 'call. Physical exertion should be part of the competition.

If there is a motor running continously on a race boat, why not drive a propellor?

Cost is a non issue at this level of sport (the AC, or the volvo) in terms of paid grinders versus engines.

Actually, get rid of the tactiticians weight too. They can radio in the calls from off the boat.

And the skipper can probably drive via remote control from off the boat.

 

Throw away your winches, billies, cleats, instruments, start watch, batteries etc.

WTF is wrong with cleats?

And what is a billy?

[Guest]

You don't really want to start the wing conversation....

Mike Drummond reckoned they were being kind keeping the trimmers on BMW ORACLE .

It really was 'sail by numbers'.

 

Mind you they did have the Code O to look after!

 

Actually that is probably where the sport will go...

Given that engines, computers etc can with enough time//money out-perform a human in power to weight.

The AC will eventually have to have a minimum crew / weight rule just so that the boys can go for a ride.

 

What does a formula 1 driver weigh, do they ahve corrector weights?

[Guest Brucey]

 

What does a formula 1 driver weigh, do they ahve corrector weights?

 

There goes sailing for 95% of the people you see out there. Those slim hipped 64kg F1 drivers taking over sailing too? No chance, 15 minutes with Booboo and sum rum jugs and they would never come back.

 

Hey but what about monkeys, they can fly a space ship around the earth, how hard is sailing after that?

[Guest]

 

I strongly disagree Paddy O. I thought sailing ws a sport, and thats how I justify the 'no motors 'call. Physical exertion should be part of the competition.

Why do sailors need to be 'athletes'?

If there is a motor running continously on a race boat, why not drive a propellor?

That is power boating

Cost is a non issue at this level of sport (the AC, or the volvo) in terms of paid grinders versus engines.

Ask Dalts if cost is an issue - of course it is

Actually, get rid of the tactiticians weight too. They can radio in the calls from off the boat.

The formula one car tactician is in the pits isn't he?

And the skipper can probably drive via remote control from off the boat.

Nah somebody has to get hurt when they crash, wouldn't be good tv otherwise

 

Throw away your winches, billies, cleats, instruments, start watch, batteries etc.

WTF is wrong with cleats?

And what is a billy?

A billie is a pulley sytem. eg like a multi pulley mainsheet, vang or cunningham.

 

I suppose I'm talking about going as fast as you can within the box rule.

Why lugg big expensive grinders (in every sense) around that really don't make for a fast boat.

 

Are Coutts and coy are trying to build a formula one circuit?

He will eventulaly get the circuit he and Cayard tried to float 4 years? ago

70' multis... ring a bell?

[Guest]

 

What does a formula 1 driver weigh, do they ahve corrector weights?

 

There goes sailing for 95% of the people you see out there. Those slim hipped 64kg F1 drivers taking over sailing too? No chance, 15 minutes with Booboo and sum rum jugs and they would never come back.

 

Hey but what about monkeys, they can fly a space ship around the earth, how hard is sailing after that?

 

Re. Slim 64kg monkey's... are you referring to French multihull sailors?

[Clipper 343]

Paddy O,

 

I think we just have fundamental differences in our beliefs as to what constitues sailing as a sport.

 

I strongly believe that engines used to mechanically assist sailors are wrong. by all means cant your lead keels (if thats your game), but I'd say it should only be done using human power.

 

You will never convice me otherwise, and likewise, you'll not be convinced in the other direction.

[Kiteroa 8]

 

What does a formula 1 driver weigh, do they ahve corrector weights?

 

There goes sailing for 95% of the people you see out there. Those slim hipped 64kg F1 drivers taking over sailing too? No chance, 15 minutes with Booboo and sum rum jugs and they would never come back.

 

Hey but what about monkeys, they can fly a space ship around the earth, how hard is sailing after that?

 

It's more about weight distribution than total driver weight for F1. The measured weight including driver is the same for all cars. But if you have a heavy driver it limits setup and weight distribution scope. And the cars are small, so a driver weighing much more than about 68kg is not going to fit in the car.

[Guest]

I think many see motors as the top of a slippery slope. Replace 1/3 crew and winches with motors then before long another 1/3 with computer imaging software for sail trim and ballast weights all connected to the motors then the last 1/3 with a remote control interface with the steering gear and robot barman. Before long who is left?

 

And you can't say it couldn't easily happen like that. 15 odd short years ago no one would have dreamed there would be yacht/s that couldn't sail properly without a motor running.

 

But we are talking AC here and since when did that have any real connection to yachting as most know it.

 

Besides motors stink and are noisy. Hang on, I think I just described a lot of my crew

 

Wings are fine. Real boats have had wings for years so it's probably about time the AC caught up.

[SloopJohnB 322]

I think many see motors as the top of a slippery slope. Replace 1/3 crew and winches with motors then before long another 1/3 with computer imaging software for sail trim and ballast weights all connected to the motors then the last 1/3 with a remote control interface with the steering gear and robot barman. Before long who is left?

 

And you can't say it couldn't easily happen like that. 15 odd short years ago no one would have dreamed there would be yacht/s that couldn't sail properly without a motor running.

 

But we are talking AC here and since when did that have any real connection to yachting as most know it.

 

Besides motors stink and are noisy. Hang on, I think I just described a lot of my crew

 

Wings are fine. Real boats have had wings for years so it's probably about time the AC caught up.

 

 

and you end up with one of these.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=14789

[Guest]

I did imagine slightly larger than that but Yes, very much along the same lines.

[SloopJohnB 322]

Then like this

 

http://membres.multimania.fr/vrc/

 

or this

 

http://water.resist.free.fr/