Legal Questions

[Guest]

What are the legal ramifications of asking guests to contribute to expenses. Say you are doing a long trip. pick up crew off the beach, and ask them for say $30 per day towards costs?

[Guest]

Ramifications?? NONE!!!

The term is "reward or profit". Are your intentions for them to contribute to the ships running costs or PAY for them? If its the latter then yes you need the old MSA number on the side etc. If you come away with nothing in the way of "added value" then you pass. In other words, the fuel costs, food etc are split amongst all parties then there is no problem. There is however one caveat. ADVERTISING. If you were to advertise a "share the cost" voyage in order to have total strangers pay towards your running costs then that could be deemed as a commercial enterprise but if the others concerned haven't been "touted" to do so then I can not see a problem. This is actually a good question because it also relates to hitch hikers too. Picking someone up off the street and "inviting" them to contribute is not illegal. Having an agency bring together drivers and paying passengers is!

You can not demand money from others but you can ask them if they would care to volunteer some of the running costs but those costs have to be fair and reasonable, in other words, they are not paying your share too!

[Guest]

What are the legal ramifications of asking guests to contribute to expenses. Say you are doing a long trip. pick up crew off the beach, and ask them for say $30 per day towards costs?

 

could be liable in tort in many states for any injuries they suffer on your boat etc, you could you a standard disclaimer form but often these aren't enforceable for personal injury..

 

No. NZ has ACC which handles any compensation claims from personal injury be it work place or not. That is not to say you can not be prosecuted for "criminal negligence". If you knowingly put people at risk then that could be the case (a willful act) and that has no bearing whatsoever on any financial transactions.

[Guest]

If you were up in the islands and picked up crew what legal stuff would you ask for? Health insurance?

[Guest]

If you were up in the islands and picked up crew what legal stuff would you ask for? Health insurance?

 

Not sure of the question Squid? Passport would be one, depending of course on where the ships going. A WRITTEN assurance that they accept full responsibility for anything they bring aboard (covers the "drug" part!). Health is an interesting one. The conduct and well being of passengers and crew (regardless of financial arrangements) is the responsibility of the Master. That being said depending on what nationality they are most countries will assist their citizens with help abroad, medical or not. I would suspect that if they were PAID crew or paying passengers then the Master of the vessel must ensure their well being so insurance is not a silly idea!

[wheels 543]

How it has to be done, or shown to be done, is all costs of trip added together and then devided between all. Otherwise it is deemed as "Hire or reward"

[Guest]

The whole 'hire or reward' thing is fraught with traps.

 

If someone gives me a chocolate fish for taking them for a Fly, that makes me a commercial pilot and as I'm knot I would have busted the law. Same applies to divers, give your mate a choco fish to scrub your bum and he's then a commercial diver and must be ticketed appropriately.

 

But I can 'cost share' in an aircraft as long as the cost paid by the passengers is commensurate with that passengers trip and so on. They can't pay for it all only their portion and knot one cent over.

 

It's been a while since I did all my marine legal stuff so thing have likely changed. But it wouldn't surprise me if the same sort of thing now applies there as well now, it does seem to be everywhere else.

 

I would say that unless you make a habit of it or are doing lots of paid deliveries, making you a Pro, any punter who hops aboard for the ride and chucks a few bucks into the kitty would be no drama.

 

As Wetty points out above, these days if you take any remuneration (as mentioned above the Authorities do regard things like a chocolate fish as remuneration, it's knot money only) you maybe opening yourself up to responsibilities unbeknown to you, us or anyone bar some tosser in a office in Welly.

 

I'd ask someone 'hypothetically' what the rules are, especially if crossing borders on a boat as EVERYTHING aboard and happens aboard lands squarely on the skippers shoulders. The punter has Black Corel stashed and gets nabbed, even if you didn't know about it you'll be the stop the buck lands against.

 

YNZ should be able to help you I'd expect or if knot they should know someone who could.

[Guest]

The whole 'hire or reward' thing is fraught with traps.

If someone gives me a chocolate fish for taking them for a Fly, that makes me a commercial pilot and as I'm knot I would have busted the law.

 

Depends on how fast you can swallow the evidence!!!!

[Bad Kitty 252]

In NZ if you take any payment, and that includes a contribution for fuel , food etc then MNZ may deem that as a commercial activity.

So you do need to be careful with that.

 

Offshore, the main problem with picking people off the beach & sailling into a new country is that if they clear in as part of your crew, then you are responsible to repatriate them. So if "Manuel" the beach bum can't afford to fly out of the country you may end up paying for it.

 

Ah the joys of being the Captain huh?

[Guest]

In NZ if you take any payment, and that includes a contribution for fuel , food etc then MNZ may deem that as a commercial activity.

So you do need to be careful with that.

 

Offshore, the main problem with picking people off the beach & sailling into a new country is that if they clear in as part of your crew, then you are responsible to repatriate them. So if "Manuel" the beach bum can't afford to fly out of the country you may end up paying for it.

 

Ah the joys of being the Captain huh?

 

You are (partly) right. If suspicions were aroused then MNZ would question the contributing passenger and if they said there was an EXPECTATION from the Master to provide a contribution then, yes, you could be charged but if they OFFER to pay towards the running costs then NO. I maybe wrong but I am pretty sure there has to INTENT on the part of the Master to expect and or demand money (or goods) from someone in exchange for passage. Hard to prove if your friends refuse to play ball with the investigating officer!

 

Your second point is true if on arrival in that country they entered on the immigration card that they are leaving the same way then decide to stay!! You as the Master have the right to terminate the voyage for anyone aboard your vessel and informing customs that the individual concerned will not be leaving with you, then you are covered. The responsibility to leave the country becomes theirs and or their embassy who has to pay if they can't. If they no longer appear on your manifests crew list and have effectively "signed off" thats the end of the deal. I would suggest that picking up "strays" and taking them to other countries would be a silly thing to do. They could claim asylum aboard your boat which means you, your vessel and everyone esle aboard ends up "arrested" in port awaiting the outcome of an immigration hearing!! Best bet is to ask for and VIEW a airline ticket from them showing the point of departure is the same as your destination and YOU keep hold of the ticket along with their passport so you can hand both to immigration yourself when entering.

[Guest]

I was intrigued enough by this to call MNZ and ask what their definition of "hire or reward" was and how it would apply to recreational sailors, as opposed to obvious commercial.

They have promised to answer in the next day or so.

[SanFran 12]

They could claim asylum aboard your boat which means you, your vessel and everyone esle aboard ends up "arrested" in port awaiting the outcome of an immigration hearing!! .

 

 

That depends on how far you anchor off shore and how far they can swim, surely?

[SanFran 12]

What are the legal ramifications of asking guests to contribute to expenses. Say you are doing a long trip. pick up crew off the beach, and ask them for say $30 per day towards costs?

 

 

back to the original question though, isnt there a problem with this... 1) is $30 covering expences? (theres likley to be a profit margin somewhere there) and 2) what about the issue of having to be up to survey...(or is that just an NZ thing?

[Guest]

$30 wouldn't go close, half would be for food.

 

In survey (now SSM) only if you are commercial, so we are looking into the definition of commercial.

[wheels 543]

I went through this with four opf us flying around the South Island. Same as what KM said. The pilot could not accept anything from us as a payment of a reward. What we had to do and clearly show, which was the important part of it, was that all costs where bundled together at the end and we each paid an equal quarter. We had to be able to prove that if asked. We newver were of course, and I doubt anyone ever would ask about a boat situation either. Who would know. But if it starts becoming a regular sitution, then questions could be asked. And if the regular situations had a different bunch of "friends" each time, then it could get even harder to prove again.

Back in 2006, a water taxi operator got fined for running an operation in the sounds without having a licence. But he had actually operated for many months, which surprised me. What got him iun the end, was that he ran aground and someone was injured. They then fined him. But it was only something like $5K or something not far off that. Which I did not think much. He then sat his licence and passed it.

[Guest]

So what was included in the costs before division? Food - OK, Alcohol OK, Fuel OK, Routine maintenance after so many hours flying?, depreciation?

 

In boat terms it might cost $2k for a haulout every 2 years or $20 per week, sails $30k over 10 years $30 per week, get it?

 

Or say you have a $200k boat, a commonly quoted figure for the cost of owning the boat is 10% of the cost or $20k pa, that's $400 pw, so if 4 guests went along would they be able to contribute $100 per week and not be breaking the law?

[wheels 543]

In our case, we hired the Aircraft. So we had aircraft Hire, food, hotels, fuel etc etc of which at the end it all added up to X amount. We had a ruff idea of what the cost would be before we started and so put that much in to the "kitty" you could say. But the one biggy we didn't have, which it seems you do, is that the Aircraft was owned by another party who thus has to operate it under the Aviation law for a hire craft. So the total cost of operation is not seen by us, apart from the portion of the hire that goes to that cost.

If I understand what you are wanting to do, it sounds more like a "share" basis. I know many that share boats and thus share costs without it being a commercial situation.

[Guest]

Its not something I would loose sleep over!!! MSA etc are hot to trot with those who deliberately flout the law by taking paying passengers aboard their out of survey vessel whilst having no commercial qualifications. If your friends all decide to chip in and pay for food and fuel then you are not NOT operating a commercial enterprise! If YOU (as the skipper) put a price on the voyage and that price is conditional on them being aboard, then that is a commercial operation.

But here's an interesting question: Say you owned some super luxurious vessel (lotto?? and charged people to come aboard just to look at it, not to weigh anchor but remain dockside..... where does the law stand there!!???

[grant 40]

 

In survey (now SSM) only if you are commercial, so we are looking into the definition of commercial.

 

easiest way to avoid being commercial is to ditch the motor, or if you need that for charging drop the prop and shaft off the end. any vessel solely powered by oars or by sail is not commercial. as per the MTA definition.

 

There is provision in the MTA somewhere for 'Bona fide crew'; you regularly sail together and make contribution to either important (beer and sausages) or non-important (sails and anti-foul) expenses relating to sailing the boat. I believe that the definitions may be a bit on the loose side so it can be assessed on more what is actually happening rather than the technical definition. The days of dodgy chartering by technical argument are long gone.

 

One test to look at would be are you 'selling' the trip and what is the expectation of the person paying. Are they expecting to step aboard and be taken care of as they cruise from A to B without really knowing what is going on or contributing effort. IMHO that would definitely be commercial. OR are they the been there done that, pay for food as well as fixing the motor when it breaks down type which sounds a lot more like crew.

[Guest]

easiest way to avoid being commercial is to ditch the motor, or if you need that for charging drop the prop and shaft off the end. any vessel solely powered by oars or by sail is not commercial. as per the MTA definition.

 

 

oooohhhh Ilike that idea.