ex TL systems 63 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Just tell the AC holders we don,t want to play any more, and announce a new world cup sailing event. the inaugral event to be hosted in auckland 2016 with some fair and even and affordable rules. Still a design contest .lets say limits 50ft long x 50 ft wide x 100 ft high , however many hulls you want! Link to post Share on other sites
NevP 0 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 How many commenting here have actually skimmed through the protocol? I may be a little naive, but it doesn't seem as onerous to me as everyone seems to be making out. Maybe not exactly a level playing field, but when has the AC ever been that? The second boat allowed for the GGYC/Oracle doesn't exactly sound like a "two boat campaign" to me. The Defender is allowed "2 pairs of hulls and 2 pairs of cross beams". The second set/boat does have to be substantially (although not exactly) the same as the first, I don't see that they are allowed any additional wings/sails over the challengers, the second boat can only be launched within 30 days prior to the start of the AC qualifiers, they can't sail both boats together and they must race with the first boat unless they unintentionally damage it beyond use. It seems to me that the apparent intention is to keep costs down by only allowing competitors to develop one boat but still allowing the Defender to have a spare in case they destroy the first one, so that the whole event doesn't come to a grinding halt. This obviously isn't entirely fair & even because Larry's team can take a few more risks when they know they have a spare, but is it really as unfair as everyone is making out. Just as much smoke & mirrors coming from the ETNZ camp maybe...? Link to post Share on other sites
NevP 0 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Actually, it should probably be all the other potential teams that should be complaining about the unfair advantage that both ETNZ & Oracle have. We are the only 2 teams that had competitive AC72s and have had all the 2 boat testing with those. I'm sure a fair chunk of that development/knowledge will transfer to the 62s. The other teams will have to start from scratch / play catch up with only a single boat to test & develop. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 As I said previously. The advantage, boat wise, still hugely favours the challengers. Why?... Easy!.... If there are two or more challengers they can (as we did with prada) share much info and testing. They can compare boats, trial each other and at every regatta that can gang up or sandbag "to order" against Oracle. It is limitless what the challengers can do to get a design/speed advantage. (eTNZ with foils v Prada with no foils testing last time) This is why Oracle want to limit the challengers options. The only way the defender could possibly compete with the aforementioned is to have a defender series. And we know that the Yankee sailors will never compared notes...let all one hull/rigs etc... Sure Oracle are being difficult.... but his ain't tiddly winks and Larry and Russ ain't no fools. Link to post Share on other sites
NevP 0 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 If there are two or more challengers they can (as we did with prada) share much info and testing. They can compare boats, trial each other and at every regatta that can gang up or sandbag "to order" against Oracle. No they can't, except at the venue for the AC Qualifiers and Match. By which point it will be down to minor tweaks & crew work. So only a minor advantage. 35.5 ( Competitors shall not sail or test an AC62 Yacht in a coordinated manner with another Competitor Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 If there are two or more challengers they can (as we did with prada) share much info and testing. They can compare boats, trial each other and at every regatta that can gang up or sandbag "to order" against Oracle. No they can't, except at the venue for the AC Qualifiers and Match. By which point it will be down to minor tweaks & crew work. So only a minor advantage. 35.5 ( Competitors shall not sail or test an AC62 Yacht in a coordinated manner with another Competitor Define coordinated manner. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 If there are two or more challengers they can (as we did with prada) share much info and testing. They can compare boats, trial each other and at every regatta that can gang up or sandbag "to order" against Oracle. No they can't, except at the venue for the AC Qualifiers and Match. By which point it will be down to minor tweaks & crew work. So only a minor advantage. 35.5 ( Competitors shall not sail or test an AC62 Yacht in a coordinated manner with another Competitor Define coordinated manner. Also. Sharing info is not just sailing or testing. And how could oracle prove anything if two boats sailed for twenty minutes on a specific course? They have to find proof that a conversation took place that co-ordinated this event. And, by being in close proximity to another teams boat you can gather alot of info via photo/ scaling analysis. Link to post Share on other sites
sailinghigh 0 Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 Actually, it should probably be all the other potential teams that should be complaining about the unfair advantage that both ETNZ & Oracle have. We are the only 2 teams that had competitive AC72s and have had all the 2 boat testing with those. I'm sure a fair chunk of that development/knowledge will transfer to the 62s. The other teams will have to start from scratch / play catch up with only a single boat to test & develop. Not so some are racing with the 45's and 35's. Perhaps they aren't complaining because they don't intend to compete and waste their time energy, resources, which means the rules don't get modified or clarified. They the arbitration thing plus a sounding board. Would have thought Dalton would have access and addressed his concerns via that vehicle first. Perhaps he is about to announce his retirement with a smoke screen or a boycott which would be crowd pleaser. RE SHARING "It is limitless what the challengers can do to get a design/speed advantage. (ETNZ with foils v Prada with no foils testing last time)" What happened to the sharing with ARTEMIS. They where behide the eight ball and had not decided whether they where going to race a foiler or non foiler after arriving at SF Can you imagine Dalton sharing so the other challengers would be equal or any on the other challengers. He only sold some design aspects to recover costs. Hey the AC is not a friendly reunion game amongst friends. It's winner takes all with no prisoners. Did he also share his design re foils etc. He did not because he was the only boat to hire the rule maker before he could even take a shower after the rules where established to determine what was intended and the way the ruling was to be interpreted. Smart thinking on Daltons part at the time. Others Research Artemis Racing continues to assess the criteria for the next America’s Cup, and is in the meantime building a winning team based on experience, talent and collaboration, and looks forward to making additional team announcements soon. They and others are looking at a possible AC35 bid. and saving money. Perhaps as plan "B" 29 Jan 2014 Re " Define coordinated manner." ( 1 ) Bring the different elements of (a complex activity or organization) into a relationship that will ensure efficiency or harmony. ( 2 ) To coordinate is to arrange for things to all come together or to work with someone else to establish a common aim. Link to post Share on other sites
sailinghigh 0 Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 Also. Sharing info is not just sailing or testing. And how could oracle prove anything if two boats sailed for twenty minutes on a specific course? They have to find proof that a conversation took place that co-ordinated this event. And, by being in close proximity to another teams boat you can gather alot of info via photo/ scaling analysis. Hey are you suggesting CHEATING ! ! ! Link to post Share on other sites
NevP 0 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Also. Sharing info is not just sailing or testing. And how could oracle prove anything if two boats sailed for twenty minutes on a specific course? They have to find proof that a conversation took place that co-ordinated this event. And, by being in close proximity to another teams boat you can gather alot of info via photo/ scaling analysis. Cheating or not, I think it'd be a hard sell to suggest this wasn't coordinated. Two boats sailing the same course sure sounds coordinated to me. Regardless of whether a conversation takes place it's still coordinated as both boats have made a concious decision to sail together, whether it was arrange before hand or spur of the moment. Sharing info sounds like coordinated testing as well. Oracle have just as much opportunity to observe another competitor on the water as any of the Challengers. The restrictions on this are under 41.2 Prohibited Activities. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Sailor X would never cheat ... And yes Dalton did share. By going out early with the foil package he gave others a very big "heads up". When interviewed recently. Rod Davis said the biggest mistake ETNZ made in the AC was to expose their foiling advantage to early. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Also. Sharing info is not just sailing or testing. And how could oracle prove anything if two boats sailed for twenty minutes on a specific course? They have to find proof that a conversation took place that co-ordinated this event. And, by being in close proximity to another teams boat you can gather alot of info via photo/ scaling analysis. Cheating or not, I think it'd be a hard sell to suggest this wasn't coordinated. Two boats sailing the same course sure sounds coordinated to me. Regardless of whether a conversation takes place it's still coordinated as both boats have made a concious decision to sail together, whether it was arrange before hand or spur of the moment. Sharing info sounds like coordinated testing as well. Oracle have just as much opportunity to observe another competitor on the water as any of the Challengers. The restrictions on this are under 41.2 Prohibited Activities. That's true, but the onus is on Oracle to prove something and make it stick. Also two boats can sail in legal proximity and not be coridinated or deemed to have made a conscious effort to sail together. harbours are small. And safe areas to sail are limited. I am not promoting cheating. But challengers can learn allt of each other than a defender can learn of them. Of course no challengers would make Oracle change their mind real fast. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 A small but still topical drift if I may. Anyone else noticed all the big events they have made 'new and improved' are dieing yet those they haven't fecked with aren't? Anyone else noticed all the old boring slow no one is interested in AC monos are still racing today and often in a fleet of others of the same ilk. Some are very very old boats now, all be it they have had some loving along the way. Can anyone name even one 'new and improved' AC multi that's sailed after the AC finished or is ever likely to sail again in the future? Anyone noticed as soon as they started 'improving; the Volvo with new boats the numbers started to drop off. Anyone noticed the Vendee Globe haven't 'new and improved' that event yet it's growing in interest in all quarters. Not to mention the massive following the event has. At the last start the crowd on the harbour foreshore was bigger than the AC ever got. Maybe the tiny few who control the AC need to buy and install some windows in their offices to see what the punters are watching. Just an observation.... about 'new and improved' verse old school tried and proven. It's got NOTHING to do with mono V multi. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 A small but still topical drift if I may. Anyone else noticed all the big events they have made 'new and improved' are dieing yet those they haven't fecked with aren't? Anyone else noticed all the old boring slow no one is interested in AC monos are still racing today and often in a fleet of others of the same ilk. Some are very very old boats now, all be it they have had some loving along the way. Can anyone name even one 'new and improved' AC multi that's sailed after the AC finished or is ever likely to sail again in the future? Anyone noticed as soon as they started 'improving; the Volvo with new boats the numbers started to drop off. Anyone noticed the Vendee Globe haven't 'new and improved' that event yet it's growing in interest in all quarters. Not to mention the massive following the event has. At the last start the crowd on the harbour foreshore was bigger than the AC ever got. Maybe the tiny few who control the AC need to buy and install some windows in their offices to see what the punters are watching. Just an observation.... about 'new and improved' verse old school tried and proven. It's got NOTHING to do with mono V multi. Good point there batman. Just a small diversion if I may... The most " un fecked with event" and the biggest sporting event on the planet start Friday with Brazil v Croatia. No fecking with this bad boy and this leaves the AC for dead. Go Brazil! History and traction has a lot of merit. But only for sports that are simple... Tennis, soccer, golf, ... no fecking, just good sport! Link to post Share on other sites
sailinghigh 0 Posted June 11, 2014 Author Share Posted June 11, 2014 Sailor X would never cheat ... And yes Dalton did share. By going out early with the foil package he gave others a very big "heads up". When interviewed recently. Rod Davis said the biggest mistake ETNZ made in the AC was to expose their foiling advantage to early. How come TNZ was the only boat with the foiling system that caused the protests from all the others including the defender that caught them on the hop with the ruling that favoured TNZ and most NZ,s where holding their breath until the decision was announced. If the decision had on gone against ETNZ they would have been stuffed. Going early was the measurement requirement. The simple fact was the other boats could not foil with light winds when ETNZ could with wider boards. Didn't mean to infer you would cheat. Biggest Mistake disagree. The biggest mistake was Daltons decision was to throw Jimmy a monopoly card re jail, and not consulting BARKER before hand plus being so defiant by not accepting reciprocal support. Km. The Volvo issue is because on the one design rule being introduced like all the other one design and around the world races. Falling entries and interest. The future lies with regional zones races, long and medium ocean races. Like Oceania mono hull and multihull combined with a single handicap system VPP. Link to post Share on other sites
sailinghigh 0 Posted June 11, 2014 Author Share Posted June 11, 2014 A small but still topical drift if I may. Anyone else noticed all the big events they have made 'new and improved' are dieing yet those they haven't fecked with aren't? Anyone else noticed all the old boring slow no one is interested in AC monos are still racing today and often in a fleet of others of the same ilk. Some are very very old boats now, all be it they have had some loving along the way. Can anyone name even one 'new and improved' AC multi that's sailed after the AC finished or is ever likely to sail again in the future? Anyone noticed as soon as they started 'improving; the Volvo with new boats the numbers started to drop off. Anyone noticed the Vendee Globe haven't 'new and improved' that event yet it's growing in interest in all quarters. Not to mention the massive following the event has. At the last start the crowd on the harbour foreshore was bigger than the AC ever got. Maybe the tiny few who control the AC need to buy and install some windows in their offices to see what the punters are watching. Just an observation.... about 'new and improved' verse old school tried and proven. It's got NOTHING to do with mono V multi. Good point there batman. Just a small diversion if I may... The most " un fecked with event" and the biggest sporting event on the planet start Friday with Brazil v Croatia. No fecking with this bad boy and this leaves the AC for dead. Go Brazil! History and traction has a lot of merit. But only for sports that are simple... Tennis, soccer, golf, ... no fecking, just good sport! Sorry Brazil is not rising. Look what they are doing to the rain forests and the forest tribes. A tribe on the endangered human species is a crime against humanity. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 WTF? Are you posting "high" bruv? We are talking " a soccer deviation" here not some eco Amazonian ran forest diversion. Also you cannot divert a diversion of someone else's diversion! You obviously have never played "zoom swartz vigliano!!! And if we are being double kazoomped here then what about our own amazoinian issues regarding... um oh lets say... Nitrate levels in our water ways Methane levels from our Milk industry Or maybe... I wonder what happened to all the Kauri trees? Sailing high. No more posting high. OK got it Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,235 Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 This thread is nearing the end of it's usefulness. Back on topic, or it will be closed. Link to post Share on other sites
OYSTR 1 Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Just like old times with JustinPort and OceanCruiser Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 The Volvo issue is because on the one design rule being introduced like all the other one design and around the world races. Falling entries and interest. The future lies with regional zones races, long and medium ocean races. Like Oceania mono hull and multihull combined with a single handicap system VPP. Nope. The Volvo is fading as a group of yachties thought they could improve it so started fecking with the tried and true taking it away from what it was which has lead to the race struggling to have an identity. Similar to the AC, it's also lost it's direction and strayed too far from 150 odd years of history and in doing so it's lost it's identity and/or soul if you like to put it that way, which I think you can. The future lies in identities. Those with one will go on, those without or had them tweaked too far or removed will struggle. Look at the Super 87 or how ever many it is this week. Struggling, why? Who the f*ck knows who a 'Maroon' is and who/what it represents? I'd say most if asked would say the Maroons are a box of cake like biscuit things or a boy band and next to none would say Rugby. Ask anyone what a team called 'North Harbour' or 'Taranaki' is about and they would even have to know what the sport was to get the answer pretty damn close if not spot on. . Look at it this way as well. 'Team Oracle' means a company with money to most people, assuming most even know who they are, so unless you have a weird thing for databases it doesn't have that much of a grab. Where on the other hand who couldn't tell what 'Team New Zealand' is all about. And that's why TNZ has been as successful as it has, it has a heart and an identity and the people can see then identify with it. Yet another way, in a few months many NZers will have a chose between left or right (in fact it's more centre, centre and a pile of semi-loopy fringe elements) and each of those players will be going hard out creating themselves an identity they hope voters will back. Events that have an identity people can identify with will be OK, those that haven't won't. So I would suggest both the AC and the Volvo are currently having identity issues hence the fading support/interest/backing. Sure they can change but I can't see how they can at the moment. But then the changes to the Volvo pre this race I thought were OK but they will take time to bed in, I hope they do. Link to post Share on other sites
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