Liferafts

[Priscilla II 396]

Will that past muster for a Cat 1.

Say you have 4 crew in foulies with water and supplies etc it would have to be a pretty decent sized tender along with a method of power?fuel to seek out safety in a atrocious sea state.

Most seem content to just flip the epirb on and sit and wait.

Hope that it works and someone actually responds.

[Black Panther 1,600]

Therein the problem. Cat 1 says a liferafts. So no one is putting any thought into other possible solutions.

 

Most offshore cruisers sail two up.

[ex TL systems 63]

With a multi hull you should only have to abandon ship if it’s on fire and you can’t stop it so firefighting gear is important. Another piece of kit that could be useful is a small size bright colour kite similar to a kitesurfing kite but smaller. This can give propulsion and visibility as it will sit 30 metres up in any thing over about 8 knots of wind.

[Priscilla II 396]

Single person raft for the budget minded or lonely sailor.

[Priscilla II 396]

https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/parts-accessories/safety/auction-1618062454.htm?rsqid=3727f559a9494e6bb5c2ee08ff96abee

[ex TL systems 63]

Yes got one of those already

[Fish 0]

Say you have 4 crew in foulies with water and supplies etc it would have to be a pretty decent sized tender along with a method of power?fuel to seek out safety in a atrocious sea state.

 

Most yachts already have a tender that can carry 4 crew plus gear. These days its hanging off davits at the stern, so launching should be very easy. You couldn't get closer to the definition of a lifeboat on the old style ocean liners if you tried.

 

Take said existing tender and just apply a little thought to its set up. A small sealed locker i.e. in the bow of a rib, would cover most things you'd need. Some rope around the gunwale for lifting, for hanging onto in the water, or for righting it after a capsize.

 

Not sure what you need fuel for though. A liferaft doesn't carry fuel. You sit out the atrocious conditions, when the weather settles (and if you haven't already been rescued) pop up a sailing rig and carry on. Wouldn't be hard to get a lug rig to fit strapped inside a dinghy (think an optimist rig) short spars, modest sail, but enough to make way. This is really a gold plated option though. I would focus more on a form of shelter (cover), and either self righting, or a way to easily right it (i.e. get a dinghy with a centreboard), and a sea anchor of some sort, plus water and comms gear (a standard grab bag, permanently stowed under a seat)

[Black Panther 1,600]

Cat 1 is one size fits all. A raft may well make perfect sense for a TP 52 racing to Noumea. But it is not a good fit for a couple cruising to Noumea as the first leg of a 5 year circumnavigation.

[Priscilla II 396]

Fish, I am not that convinced that a 3m RIB is going to provide any practical "sailabilty" with a lug rig and 4 persons aboard including supplies in any sort of seaway for any great distance.

Leaving the area for SAR just increases the risk for non recovery.

A covered sailing dinghy like the Tinka never sold in great numbers for practical reasons.

Putting it simply I am no Bligh but given the global coverage of the humble epirb and the propensity for yachts to sink rather quickly once catastrophic failure has occurred quickly I am more than happy to spend the 3.5k for a inflatable life raft.

Its just the price of a headsail and is a proven lifesaver.

[Black Panther 1,600]

Priscilla I think you would be very surprised at the vast stretches of ocean where rescue is very highly improbable and a passive raft would only extend the agony.

Possibly a rib isn't perfect but neither is a raft and I do not have as high an opinion of them as you do. The issue is no one is even investigating alternatives

while we are forced to carry liferafts. And why 4 people. That's a crowd on a cruising boat

 

I liked my friends solution of a sailing outrigger.

[Priscilla II 396]

BP, can you point me in the direction of any recent successful examples of self rescue at sea anywhere using your concept.

I do wish you all the best in your travels and god forbid if one founders in the most remote areas of the planet surviving by any method is paramount.

On a aside Mike Bailes sailed a Folkboat with raised plank topsides around the planet and after surviving one particularly nasty and lenghty easterly storm off our coast was daily visited by a solo dolphin. After several days in his crippled vessel with limited supplies and options he sadly consumed his new found associate . From that friendship Mike said came life.

Mike never in my memory had any sort of life raft.

[Fish 0]

Fish, I am not that convinced that a 3m RIB is going to provide any practical "sailabilty" with a lug rig and 4 persons aboard including supplies in any sort of seaway for any great distance.

Leaving the area for SAR just increases the risk for non recovery.

 

Putting it simply I am no Bligh but given the global coverage of the humble epirb and the propensity for yachts to sink rather quickly once catastrophic failure has occurred quickly I am more than happy to spend the 3.5k for a inflatable life raft.

The news link you posted earlier stated that the Philipine Govt did not respond to the EPIRB, and there are large, large parts of the ocean (cruising areas, not southern ocean) that rescue is not possible.

 

But don't get me wrong, I agree that trying to sail a 3 m RIB would be a dog. I guess what I'm trying to highlight is that there are alternatives to an inflatable life raft. Think of the concept of a classic lifeboat (from an ocean liner) held in davits and ready to go. Many cruising yachts now carry substantial tenders on davits at the transom.

 

What I had in mind with the lug sail dinghy was if you built your own tender (i.e. plywood stitch & glue), and designed it to function as a life vessel as well. Many cruisers either build or have built a specifically designed tender. The classic is one that can row, sail and motor. In addition to that, it is common to build one to specific dimensions to fit on your yacht, i.e. a particular spot on the cabin top. It is not hard to extend that logic to a life vessel. Bouyancy is very easy to build in. I saw a good wooden tender hauled up on the beach at Tiri last summer with twin keel runners, each keel runner had handles made into it the full length - very easy to hang onto if upside down in the water. You can easily make storage for key grab-bag items. The biggest technical challenge would be to make / design a cover or shelter. Many long term cruisers make canvas covers to protect the rib rubber, I'm sure it can be done if you think about it.

 

Agree that most people just go for a raft, its quick and easy. I've been looking at options for cat 3. Basic requirements are a dinghy, big enough for all crew, with oars permanently fitted (and a bailer or something else). What I have been looking at is building one just the right size to fit on my cabin top without getting in the way. Stitch and glue in plywood is very easy and quick. This doesn't need servicing, you know it will work, and is quiet possibly a sh*t load better in an emergency than an inflatable raft (they are not pleasant to be in for more than 30 secs).

 

I do accept that for the majority of people just paying for a raft is easiest. But the servicing costs are getting out of hand, and can be incurred annually (often after the first 3 years) - thats if you aren't world cruising and can't actually get to a service agent...

[Priscilla II 396]

Fish, in all my sailing life I have never seen or sailed on a yacht that has not as a primary when it all turns to sh*t option stocked anything else but a inflatable.

Sure in your view a raft is not the ideal option and along with BP maybe getting yourself out of the crap in a home built life preserving orb is your choice.

However I ask the same question who has survived a drama at sea in the craft you describe.

[Black Panther 1,600]

Priscilla you are right. That is because other options haven't been pursued.

[ex TL systems 63]

The crew of the rose noelle survived well without a raft although they did not seem to have a viable tender, and there best option was to stay with the boat.

[Fish 0]

Fish, in all my sailing life I have never seen or sailed on a yacht that has not as a primary when it all turns to sh*t option stocked anything else but a inflatable.

Sure in your view a raft is not the ideal option and along with BP maybe getting yourself out of the crap in a home built life preserving orb is your choice.

However I ask the same question who has survived a drama at sea in the craft you describe.

There are plenty of examples of crews using dinghies for rescue following their vessel sinking. Probably the most recent is the other week at the Mokohinau's. There is also a fairly famous example of a launch hitting a whale near Cape Brett and sinking quickly, crew went into a dinghy. Certainly through the pre-EPIRB cruising era there are multiple examples of crews surviving in dinghies for extended periods of time, i.e. 70's and 80's.

 

I think you may be missing the point though. There are a lot of examples of people being rescued from rafts, because basically everyone carry rafts.

 

This is around getting sucked in by modern marketing.

We have been taught that rafts are the only option of last resort. Rafts are the best choice in a number of situations, particularly boats that lack space, and have large crews. The best example is racing yachts, they have large crews and want to save on weight, windage or have clear decks for sailing handling etc. There was a time when racing crews only carried dinghies, cause rafts weren't available. If you've got a crew of 10 or 12, your going to need a big dinghy, hence the need for a raft.

 

But go back a bit further, and ships and proper yachts always carried a lifeboat. For smaller yachts this was also used as a tender to get to shore etc. A well designed dinghy will save your arse just as well as a liferaft, the details are around the logistics of stowage on deck, the size of the crew and the size of a possible dinghy. If you are cruising, chances are you'll have a large boat with a small crew, example is BP, which is (how long BP) 70 ft? (plenty big anyway) and likely have two on board. I'm looking at short handed racing, 2 crew max. You can't even get a 2 man raft in NZ, and there is maybe one or two examples available globally.

 

That said, if I were racing fully crewed, I'd just go for a raft. On my boat fully crewed is 6, and I've got a 6 man raft in my shed. Its out of date and indications to service it are around $1,500 - hence my dummy spit, and investigation of other options.

 

Two of the examples I've given above are coastal NZ, in the same waters I intend to race and cruise. The safety requirements for this area (Cat 3) allow for a suitably provisioned dinghy to be carried instead of a raft - so I'm not really sure what the fuss is about here. What I'm talking about complies with the regs, and there are recent examples of it being used.

 

In the case of offshore cruising, I think there is a strong arguement for suitable dinghies over rafts, given the appropriate situation, being small crews and yachts with the space to store said life-pod on deck. Its not appropriate for large crews such as racing yachts. I haven't actually checked the Cat 1 regs, but I'd be surprised if they were so rigid to require an inflatable contraption with pressurised steel cylinders activated by a piece of string over a more reliable option of an already inflated or rigid dinghy that will float without any mechanical or physical assistance (i.e. gas cannisters firing etc). 

 

I think the stringent servicing requirements of life rafts demonstrate the fragility of them as a system. to address that fragility, you can have regular, expensive inspections, or get something thats not fragile (like a dinghy).

[Priscilla II 396]

 

The Herald article I initially posted does highlite the shortcomings of a half awash ever tumbling human container.

To progress the concept of a self saving life preserving option that can adequately meet the challenges of meeting a testing environment what are the alternative practical options .

[Fish 0]

I think in that example the story answered itself - the boat washed up fine. They should have stayed on it. (hindsight is 20:20 etc).

 

The catamaran guys obviously have an angle here. Only boats with lead on them sink. Cats are often referred to as rafts cause they can't / wont sink.

 

I've got another example of a crew saving themselves in a dinghy. Boat caught fire (this example was in Scotland) - they had to abandon, water was basically flat, so a dinghy was ideal. 

You and I may be focusing on rough weather abandonment. I think in rough weather you are better off staying with the boat, even if it is awash. Calm weather abandonment, I'd really rate a dingy - fire, sinking via hitting a rock or UFO etc.

 

Question Priscilla - do you carry a liferaft on your yacht now?

(I'm actually planning on putting my out of date raft back onboard, its no use to me in the shed, and even out of date, chances are it'll work fine if I need it, if it doesn't, its the same as leaving it in the shed - and I'm not racing currently so weight and certificates aren't an issue).

[Fish 0]

The Herald article I initially posted does highlite the shortcomings of a half awash ever tumbling human container.

To progress the concept of a self saving life preserving option that can adequately meet the challenges of meeting a testing environment what are the alternative practical options .

But to answer that question explicitly - survival suits.

 

They were cruising in cyclone area, need to plan for the sh*t going down. These would address the salt sores and largely mitigate the exposure issues. Doesn't address hydration and weeing, but it would have been a big step forward. Even dry suits, they are widely available now and not that pricey (cause a dry suit doesn't need servicing). They were in the storm a while before they abandoned, plenty of time to get dressed properly.

[Fish 0]

Edit,

examples of a dry suit, and an immersion suit, both available locally, and at differing price points (neither need servicing):

 

Dry suit, $599

https://www.nzsailing.com/gul-drysuit-shadow-front-zip-408859

 

Immersion suit $2090

https://www.safetyatsea.co.nz/Product-Catalogue/Immersion-Suits/Immersion-Suits/Immersion-Suit-Contra-110-LW/10773?industry=commercial