RedLine 0 Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 Hi Guys I make a living as an Electrical Design Engineer, and have only just read thru this. I also own a Ross 930, and have read thru the posts with interest. What I would say is that not that much has changed, small boats with no fixed or connectable installation, are still perfectly acceptable if they simply have an IP rated plug (common in most marinas) with a suitable rated (10A/16A) flexible 3C cable, that contains an RCD, and a 10A socket outlet. The marina may be able to insist that the lead is tested and displays a label. The in built test of an RCD is ok, but a proper test requires the use of an RCD tester, that any good Electrician should have access to. There are similar requirements to this for Caravan sites for example. This is all thats required. You do not need to create a permanent connectable installation in your boat, as this simply increases any risk, so would not be a sensible approach. Those that already have a permanent AC distribution system on their boats will require full compliance as outlined in other posts here. Im happy to answer any Q's people have. The main issue here is that private owners of Marinas can insist on whatever they want, but that is not what is necssarily required by the legislation. And that is largely where there are going to be issues between boat owners, and Marina owners. Stuart Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted October 29, 2010 Author Share Posted October 29, 2010 Hi Redline, great to see an ex[ert in this field. You may well get loaded with questions. The main issue with the Marlborough Marinas is that they are saying you MUST have the plug socket box screwed to the boat and they are aware that this is then called a fixed installation and thus you MUST have an eWOF to be connected. No matter what size bot you are. The new requirements really only have changed in that now to get an eWOF, you DC system MUST be tied to the AC system Earth and the DC system therefore also has to be upto the ColRegs standard and also Inspected and tested along with the AC side. Along with an Earthing plate fixed to the Hull below waterline. So you have two choices for the Marl Martinas. Choice one, no power connection at all. Chouce two, comply with all requirements to get an eWOF. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 I have done some careful investigations and, according to the information I have got, there is no foundation in the regulations for the requirements imposed by Westhaven Marina. Because the whole thing seemed to be beyond common sense, I called Peter Morfee of the Ministry of economic development who is the man in charge of all this. I asked specifically if he was the “oracle" for all this and he assured me that he was. I have followed up my discussion with him a with an e-mail and he has promised to reply. Unless his written reply is different from what he told me, the situation is that there is nothing illegal about 10 A socket on the end of lead with a 16 A plug. I repeat: nothing illegal. What is illegal–and obviously improper–is to have a 10 amp plug with a 16A socket outlet at the end of it. It is also true that if you have a fixed 230 V installation on your boat and you want to connect to shore power, then it must have an electrical warrant of fitness. Which is no different from the requirements for a caravan and is obviously quite sensible. (Even though I could argue that, because of the RCD, no matter how bad the wiring, it is still pretty safe. But I won't do that.) I have passed this information on to the management at Westhaven and also the Westhaven Marina users Association of which I am a committee member. At the very least, I believe that this information is sufficient for everyone to do nothing until we have absolute confirmation that the information Peter Morfee gave me is correct. My personal view is that Westhaven Marina was wrong to employ as a “consultant" somebody who also sells the equipment that, he claims, we must have. Many people would regard this as a fundamental conflict of interest. I am one of them. I will pass on any updates to come to hand. Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted October 30, 2010 Author Share Posted October 30, 2010 That information also needs to be sent to the Marina's Association. This Association has printed and small brochure and handed it out to all Marinas with all the information. Port Marlborough have taken the very lazy and typical route of, we don't care, that's the way it is. It's the Inspectors problem with insuring all comply. Link to post Share on other sites
Murky 1 Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 Excellent news to hear all of the above. The current "co-operation" between the marinas seems to have been a backwards step which has resulted in all of them getting it wrong, and then gradually retreating from their previous position according to their individual personalities. The latest newsletter up here states: "We’ve included an excellent brochure for you from the NZ Marina Operators Association that clearly explains the boat owners’ obligations...we have been told of three boat fires in NZ marinas in the last year". Hmmm I think, re-reading that sentence there is nothing in it that says the fires were directly caused by electrical connections or the failures thereof (or even anything electrical), and yet it is held up as justification. Keep the good info coming guys... Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted October 30, 2010 Author Share Posted October 30, 2010 The fire at Waikawa, if that is one they are refering to, was started by a dry exhaust. Another in some other part of the country was from the DC system. Another not in a Marina was also from the3 DC side. It is very rare for the AC side to cause issues in boats, simply because their is very little of a AC system, unlike the complex DC systems. The main culprits of AC fires around thge world are Dehumidifiers and it makes no difference what you do to to your AC system to stop that kind of thing from happening. And in fact any fixed AC failure is normally due to an oveloaded plug socket, rather than a faulty connection. Yes it can happen, but it is rare. Which is one reason why I believe that a 4 yearly test is just overkill. 5 yrs would be logical, but in my view and 10 yearly test quite addiquate. Link to post Share on other sites
otto 31 Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 Redline, Bryan I to am in the industry and have had conversations with the MED. What you say is true and it is beyound that and again i suggest a working party to sort this out. Westhaven is more than happy to discuss this but a forum is not the way. PM me or send me an email and i can discuss all and shed a light on what the marinas are battleing themselves. I asked another in the industry and already a major concern is with these "connectable installations" and corrosion, again who is willing to help and discuss this with the marinas? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 This e-mail is very relevant. Peter Morfee is in the lead position in the Ministry of economic development wiring regulations. I have known him for a long time and he is a competent electrical engineer. A copy of this e-mail has been sent to Russell Matheson at Westhaven. I see no reason why it should not be passed on to similarpeople at other marinas. If they are not prepared to act on this, they are welcome to contact Peter Morfee. I suspect he will be quite concerned that incorrect advice has been given. Peter Morfee "Confirming our Telephone conversation. There is no legal, or safety, impediment to the use of a flexible cable (or cord) fitted with a 16 Amp IEC 309 plug and a 10 Amp (or 15 amp), flat pin, socket outlet to temporarily supply portable appliances used for maintenance, or similar, purposes in a pleasure craft located in a Marina. The use of a 10 amp rated extension cord to supply power to appliances located on a vessel on an ongoing (permanent) basis is not condoned. Permanent supplies are expected to be achieved through a properly installed IEC 308 plug / socket supply arrangement. Regards." Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted November 4, 2010 Author Share Posted November 4, 2010 Yes it has to go to all the marinas, even if that is via there association, Port Marl down here have a we don't really care attitude, but that is going to be a big problem to any visitor that comes in to the marinas. They comply elsewhere, but will not be allowed to plug in here with what they have. Link to post Share on other sites
smithy09 50 Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Good work everyone. Keep it up.. Interestingly I looked over a nice 40ft+ yacht in Westhaven the other day with a perminent 240Vac system. No earth plate to be seen (but maybe??) Owner told me his sparky gave him an ewof no problem, no fuss....... I suspect most of the inspection requirements listed by wheels were NOT carried out.... Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted November 9, 2010 Author Share Posted November 9, 2010 Yeah I kinda figured that this scenario would take place. Link to post Share on other sites
smithy09 50 Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Me too. Just find your pet sparkie and away you go! Seen it all before in industry, especially with hazardous areas and intrinsically safe gear. Makes the regs pertaining to yachts look like a walk in the park!! Link to post Share on other sites
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