Smart regulator connection to ignition switch

[CarpeDiem 323]

1 hour ago, Ex Machina said:

Bit of a drift ….this is quite interesting but has its limitations of course . Would really only make sense with LifePo4 batteries with the massive amount of current being produced for short periods .

 

https://boattest.com/integrel-an-alternative-to-a-generator

They are really nice units.

The Wakespeed can be set up to do this as well.  But it's a lot more manual work and integration.  And probably would not work as well.

 

 

 

 

 

[wheels 543]

On 30/06/2022 at 10:53 AM, CarpeDiem said:

That's smoke and mirrors.

However you're the one making the claims, not the manufacturer.   They simply claim the unit works like any other non temperature sensed voltage regulator. 

This unit is a perfect basic regulator that doesn't make any fanciful claims about its performance or capabilities. If I had a need for one, then I would certainly consider this unit. 

So what didn't you understand from my comment? Yes it works like some of the non sensing regulators. Not many or all, but some.
There is an EPROM inside that has been programmed to control the charging.
Why is it cheap? because they have saved costs by not creating an exensive box. They are not trying to recover the many hrs of R&D. Craeme and Son has a regular job and the Reg is something they have spent many hrs of their own spare time on.
How do I know all this? because I have sat with Graeme for many hrs discussing the thing..... as well as many other subjects.
The real proof is that it works. It drives Alternators upto 10% above their normal output and the ALT is able to survive. Although they do suggest you use specific ALT's as not all are created equal in quality.
 

[whitepointer 31]

I am upsizing the positive wire from alt to start battery to 50mm, for the 3.5 mtr run, also alt to engine  block negative to 50mm, so do I still need the original small gauge positive wire from alt to starter, it would be nice to remove it to tidy things up ,  between battery banks im using a blue seas combiner/ vsr

[CarpeDiem 323]

11 hours ago, wheels said:

The real proof is that it works. It drives Alternators at least 10% above their normal output and the ALT is able to survive. Although they do suggest you use specific ALT's as not all are created equal in quality.

This isn't a claim the manufacturer of the ZM5 makes. This is your claim. 

[CarpeDiem 323]

6 hours ago, whitepointer said:

I am upsizing the positive wire from alt to start battery to 50mm, for the 3.5 mtr run, also alt to engine  block negative to 50mm, so do I still need the original small gauge positive wire from alt to starter, it would be nice to remove it to tidy things up ,  between battery banks im using a blue seas combiner/ vsr

Probably not. But would need to understand the End-to-End cabling. 

From what you have said, I would think you'd be better off to upgrade the cable to the starter, and upgrade the alt b+ to the starter... There is not a lot of point in running two heavy cables to the engine. Although it can stop spikes from the starter blowing up the alt.  If you do, then both would need an isolating switch.   If the alt has a B- then I would also upgrade this to the engine block to reduce stray currents through block. 

Assume you are running a VSR or a Diode? 

[whitepointer 31]

18 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said:

Probably not. But would need to understand the End-to-End cabling. 

From what you have said, I would think you'd be better off to upgrade the cable to the starter, and upgrade the alt b+ to the starter... There is not a lot of point in running two heavy cables to the engine. If you do, then both would need an isolating switch.   If the alt has a B- then I would also upgrade this to the engine block to reduce stray currents through block. 

Assume you are running a VSR or a Diode? 

Boat already had a separate  wire, approx 25mm direct from alt to start battery via isolation switch, also an older battery isolater between start and hose bank, so with alt upgrade to 120 amp I thought I would upsize to 50mm,  im also now using a blue seas VSR,  so yes a think I will keep the alt b+ to starter wire aswell

[wheels 543]

12 hours ago, CarpeDiem said:

This isn't a claim the manufacturer of the ZM5 makes. This is your claim. 

No it is not my Claim. Graeme has even demonstrated this to me on his test bed. It is not a claim that has been included within their information, however that does not make it false.
I will reword my above comment slightly. The output of the ALT can often be increased by upto 10% for many Alternators. But not all. It depends on the ALT. It is one main factor behind why Graeme suggests certain Alternators be used.

[Guest 35]

 Ten percent of what? "Normal output" is not sticker amperage unless it is hot-rated. And then its still not continuous in some. Its some arbitrary figure the manufacturers are prepared to live with relative to stator/rotor/field duty. The definition of "normal" output here is how % increase claims can be made. It has been widely accepted and utilized that there are auto alternators out there that can be driven harder, way more than a budget, thermistor limited, that quickly de-rates to less than half sticker amperage that is suitable for a car.

I curious to know what Graeme adds to the ZM6 for LFP, that meets my requirements.  The lack of temperature sensor for alt temp control was the reason I didn't go for the ZM4 yrs ago for the FLA's. Mean time I will stick with Balmar belt manager & max temp cutoff of the MC614. Not saying that ZM4 wasn't successful for most users as it wasn't hard, say, to get more out of a stock Hitachi  80A alternator. Just there are better auto alternators out there to play with and more configurable regulators. Without even considering large frame HD. My understanding at this point in time, not being privy to the cooking vs sticker A's testing that Graeme has done.

 

[whitepointer 31]

Another question, instructions with blue seas ACR combiner , they suggest running alternator b+ to house bank, then through ACR to start batteries, reason is to stop chattering of the ACR due to difference in bank capacities, creates more cost for another 4mtrs of 50mm wire plus crimps etc, this would enable deleting the alt b+ to starter cable,  Bosch alt is neg from case so will be running a 50mm wire from case to eng block , then to negative bus at batteries,

house bank is 2 6volt, 235 amps,  so not large, do I need to go this way or stick with existing alt+ to starter/ start battery, ACR to house  bank,zm5 smart reg will be sensed from house bank as per instructions

 

[Guest 35]

Yep, that what I did on mine, but with three switches House/emergency/start plus ACR and requisite fuses.

I didn't use the  1/2/both /0ff for make/break reasons and preferred this.

 

 

 

More complete. I swapped ACR for VSR

 

 

[whitepointer 31]

OK, that's the same circuit diagram I viewed on cruiser forum last night, back on the boat tmoro to progress this project

[marinheiro 339]

I am running a Balmar duo charge for the 2 sets of batteries charged from the original engine alternator (a grunty Leece Neville takes care of the house bank )

https://balmar.net/products/digital-duo-charge/

the alternator's output goes straight to the battery for the electric halyard/anchor winches and centreboard hydraulic pump, which draw some serious current. The duo charge keeps the start battery topped off. Remember under normal circumstances the start battery only requires minimal charging.

[wheels 543]

20 hours ago, Guest said:

The definition of "normal" output here is how % increase claims can be made

You have to understand how an ALT works in a normal situation and how one is controlled by an external reg. As I said above, there are two main ways of controlling.
In a non external reg situation, the ALT simply produces a continuous current into a battery. But as the Voltage rises, which is actually quite quickly, the current also quickly (proportionaly) drops. So the actual regulation is caused by the Battery load itself.
By using an external reg, the maximum output if the ALT is maintained no matter what the Voltage point of the Battery is. There are two ways of controlling the ALT in this situation.
First is to simply run the ALT at a full output mode and sense Battery Voltages. To ensure the bank does not overheat, a remote Temp sensor is used. Some cheaper units use a temp sensor inside the Reg and simply consider the Ambient temp only and allow a current to be produced by the ALT relating to the Ambient Temp, assuming the Bank is also at that Temp. The more technical Regs use a remote Temp sensor and are monitoring the Bank itself and will reduce the current to tailor the temp of the Bank. this stops the Bank form being overheated and boil.
Then the third way is to use a charge Algorithm and follow charge laws. If you go to the smart reg info, you will see among the info a picture of the waveform controlling the output of the ALT. It is a high frequency swtiching waveform and that switching complexity varies as the Voltage of the Bank rises. It does this till a threshold point is reached and the Reg then goes into an absorbtion charge for a set period of time and after that set period of time, the unit then triggers to a float charge.
It's simple in how it works and the proof is that it does work well.
Yes there are more complicated ways of doing it and there are units that use those more complex ways. But they are hugely more expensive. It is as simple as that. The Smart Reg does the job for a resonable price. You could spend 10x more and have a bank more accurately taken care of. But at the end of the day, I am not sure you will see a great deal more life from the bank.
On my Boat, I had the Heart Interface system using the LINK 2000 Charge controller. It was pretty much the first type of system that used the algorithm to charge a bank. The most important algorithm was Pukets Law. The only difference being that the user had to pre set many parameters of the Link to correctly charge the Bank based on the Battery manufacturers information. The system was Shore Power and Generator powered. I had no external ALT control at the time till the day I got the Smart reg. I found that the Smart reg took care of the Batteries just as well as the LINK system did without requiring all the minute details of paramateres having to be programmed into it.
 I was friends with the designer of that Link system. He sent me the system all the way from the US free of charge. He taught me what I know about battery charging and he also showed me how to alter charge patterns to show me how paramaters like Temp and what not changed how a FLA accepted a charge. My only problem today is, with the more modern batteries available, I am slipping behind because I mostly know the old FLA scenarios.

[Guest 35]

18 hours ago, whitepointer said:

OK, that's the same circuit diagram I viewed on cruiser forum last night, back on the boat tmoro to progress this project

I went through your process 6yrs ago on 4x endurant 6V  232's = 464Ahrs and and used above schematic. Has worked really well.

But I'm switching to LFP for usual reasons so my batteries (still good after 6yrs) and ACR, SG200, MGsmart charge one are going 

to be replaced with appropriate gear. Bosch alternator will be derated to 80%. Might put a second on in place of compressor.

Couple of imp. things, although unlikely are the ground leads to N bus from alternator and starter motor. If high resistance could find alternative paths

not so desirable. And fourth switch to + bus, nice to quick isolate house bank. I used 50 or 65mm^2 for all high current paths. All were <1.5m.

Of note, when batteries are down to 50%, my bosch alt  (not 2x internal fan) rather ex Porsche 944 will run between 115A ---> 80A for half an hr and

run luke warm. I think yours will fine.