Smart regulator connection to ignition switch

[whitepointer 34]

I’m fitting a zm5 smart reg from Graeme Polly,  installation instructions say to connect reg ignition terminal to the starter switch, motor is Yanmar 3ym 30, I’m unsure which terminal to connect to on the start switch, I’m assuming it needs current when key is in the run position, the wiring diagram in handbook is very small and hard to decipher

[CarpeDiem 529]

Is it a Type B panel?

Off the back of the key switch there should be 5 wires.   One of those wires goes to a 3amp fuse which powers the lights and alarms on the panel.  It could be a Red wire.

You should tap the ignition cct into that wire leading from the key to the 3amp fuse.  You should install your own fuse in the wire to the zm5.   5a would do, but if the manual specifies one specific do that.

You might even find another wire tapped into that cct if something has already been added that needs ignition cct, eg a fuel gauge or a flow alarm. If you do find one, follow it cause it could go to a relay, which would be a better place to power the ignition signal from.

 

 

[whitepointer 34]

Thanks, yep I have a 5amp fuse sorted for it, yes it is a B type panel

[wheels 544]

Go to Graeme's website and you will find all the info on there along with large easy to see wiring diags.

[Jon 412]

You can also tap in at the alternator if that’s handier

There will be a feed from the ignition to the alt, just turn on the ignition but don’t start the engine, use a multi meter to find the terminal with power and use a double spade terminal from there.

[CarpeDiem 529]

11 minutes ago, Guest said:

Does the ZM 5 have alternator temp control?

No.

[marinheiro 364]

10 hours ago, Guest said:

Does the 3YM ignition power a fuel solenoid for key shutdown? If not, its good if you need extra power (say in reverse) being able to turn key off to depower external regulator. Be mindful though that this cuts power to your alarms. I do this sometimes in reverse. (3GM & Kiwi prop heavy reverse pitch) Only relevant if batteries are low and reverse prop loading at low revs.

Otherwise I would run an extra ext reg switch. (Good for as a instant field off.)

Does the ZM 5 have alternator temp control?

It also lacks battery temperature sensing. It is advertised as a drop in replacement for Ample Power Next Step regulators (no longer manufactured), but this is not strictly true.

For larger banks you need to look at regulator options such as Balmar, Wakespeed or Sterlingpro to get amongst other features battery and alternator temp sensing 

[wheels 544]

It doesn't need the temp sensors for either due to the algorithm. It is also how the thing can make the ALT produce more than it's rated current without cooking it.
Larger Banks.....well we have one here that is controlling a 140A ALT charging 1000AHrs of Battery Bank.

[CarpeDiem 529]

Definitely a hijack. 

Current sense termination is really the only sensible way to charge LFP. 

This ZM5 unit does not monitor current and it has no alternator temp sensing.  If it does not measure the temperature then it can not back off the output current and the alternator will cook itself if it gets to hot.

It's the same as running an engine without a temperature sensor/warning - it will be absolutely fine, until the day it isn't... 

It sets the output voltage, holds it there for a set period of time once it is reached and then backs off to a float voltage after that time expires.  That's better than a standard voltage regulator, but it definitely is not smart. 

It looks like a perfectly good, basic, external regulator without the bells and whistles that the smart regulators have. 

 

[whitepointer 34]

I am only charging 2 endurant 6 volt house, I think 200 amp hrs  and 1 start, with 150 watt solar aswell, so the Bosch 120 amp alt (from Graeme) shouldn’t be to stressed 

[CarpeDiem 529]

44 minutes ago, Guest said:

I thought similarly, but sent him a text to check if he had undisclosed tech to monitor alt temp on the ZM6. As in some other parameter alters with temp of stator  to signal throttle back of field. 

 Have to agree on the current sense method for defining the “knees” but WSpeed is out of my pay scale. So have to stick to voltage. Surprised the victon doesn’t do this as it has a shunt. 
Cheers.

VRC-200 is a great choice if your alternator has remote voltage sensing.

Beats pretty much every external regulator hands down, except the Wakespeed.

The victron 712 is a completely different use case this isn't what it's designed for. It's going to be be counting amps on battery not the alternator.  You need dedicated shunts if you want to monitor the state of the battery and the charging current. 

[wheels 544]

OK, the first thing to understand is that there are two different ways to charge a battery. Either have a power supply that is somewhat "dumb" and the Temp sense and Voltage points, control the steps a charger changes stages at. Or the other way is, have an algorithm that more closely follows the charge Laws of Battery Chemistry's. The later is harder to do for all sorts of reasons and so the initial way is more the norm for most all manufactures.
Graeme is not the only one developing the Regulator. Graemes Son has done much of the physics and design of the algorithm they use. Many of you may not know, but Graeme's Son is a Scientist that works at the Cern Large Haydron Collider and they work together on the design when he has a lot of wating time during experiments. So the guy ain't no dummy.
Yes an Alternator in high output runs hot, but at the same time, switching the Alternator on and off at high frequency allows for the ALT to produce current with less on time. After playing with a controller, I have come to understand what is taking place. The MOSFET is not just turning the ALT full on and leaving it there and them ramping down as charge increases. It is doing some tricky switching.

Also to add, I don't have experience with Lithium, so my comments do not pertain to them. Only the Leadacid versions of Batteries.
 

[Ex Machina 390]

Bit of a drift ….this is quite interesting but has its limitations of course . Would really only make sense with LifePo4 batteries with the massive amount of current being produced for short periods .

 

https://boattest.com/integrel-an-alternative-to-a-generator

[CarpeDiem 529]

3 hours ago, wheels said:

OK, the first thing to understand is that there are two different ways to charge a battery. Either have a power supply that is somewhat "dumb" and the Temp sense and Voltage points, control the steps a charger changes stages at. Or the other way is, have an algorithm that more closely follows the charge Laws of Battery Chemistry's. The later is harder to do for all sorts of reasons and so the initial way is more the norm for most all manufactures.
Graeme is not the only one developing the Regulator. Graemes Son has done much of the physics and design of the algorithm they use. Many of you may not know, but Graeme's Son is a Scientist that works at the Cern Large Haydron Collider and they work together on the design when he has a lot of wating time during experiments. So the guy ain't no dummy.
Yes an Alternator in high output runs hot, but at the same time, switching the Alternator on and off at high frequency allows for the ALT to produce current with less on time. After playing with a controller, I have come to understand what is taking place. The MOSFET is not just turning the ALT full on and leaving it there and them ramping down as charge increases. It is doing some tricky switching.

Also to add, I don't have experience with Lithium, so my comments do not pertain to them. Only the Leadacid versions of Batteries.
 

That's smoke and mirrors.

However you're the one making the claims, not the manufacturer.   They simply claim the unit works like any other non temperature sensed voltage regulator. 

This unit is a perfect basic regulator that doesn't make any fanciful claims about its performance or capabilities. If I had a need for one, then I would certainly consider this unit. 

[CarpeDiem 529]

1 hour ago, Ex Machina said:

Bit of a drift ….this is quite interesting but has its limitations of course . Would really only make sense with LifePo4 batteries with the massive amount of current being produced for short periods .

 

https://boattest.com/integrel-an-alternative-to-a-generator

They are really nice units.

The Wakespeed can be set up to do this as well.  But it's a lot more manual work and integration.  And probably would not work as well.

 

 

 

 

 

[wheels 544]

On 30/06/2022 at 10:53 AM, CarpeDiem said:

That's smoke and mirrors.

However you're the one making the claims, not the manufacturer.   They simply claim the unit works like any other non temperature sensed voltage regulator. 

This unit is a perfect basic regulator that doesn't make any fanciful claims about its performance or capabilities. If I had a need for one, then I would certainly consider this unit. 

So what didn't you understand from my comment? Yes it works like some of the non sensing regulators. Not many or all, but some.
There is an EPROM inside that has been programmed to control the charging.
Why is it cheap? because they have saved costs by not creating an exensive box. They are not trying to recover the many hrs of R&D. Craeme and Son has a regular job and the Reg is something they have spent many hrs of their own spare time on.
How do I know all this? because I have sat with Graeme for many hrs discussing the thing..... as well as many other subjects.
The real proof is that it works. It drives Alternators upto 10% above their normal output and the ALT is able to survive. Although they do suggest you use specific ALT's as not all are created equal in quality.
 

[whitepointer 34]

I am upsizing the positive wire from alt to start battery to 50mm, for the 3.5 mtr run, also alt to engine  block negative to 50mm, so do I still need the original small gauge positive wire from alt to starter, it would be nice to remove it to tidy things up ,  between battery banks im using a blue seas combiner/ vsr

[CarpeDiem 529]

11 hours ago, wheels said:

The real proof is that it works. It drives Alternators at least 10% above their normal output and the ALT is able to survive. Although they do suggest you use specific ALT's as not all are created equal in quality.

This isn't a claim the manufacturer of the ZM5 makes. This is your claim. 

[CarpeDiem 529]

6 hours ago, whitepointer said:

I am upsizing the positive wire from alt to start battery to 50mm, for the 3.5 mtr run, also alt to engine  block negative to 50mm, so do I still need the original small gauge positive wire from alt to starter, it would be nice to remove it to tidy things up ,  between battery banks im using a blue seas combiner/ vsr

Probably not. But would need to understand the End-to-End cabling. 

From what you have said, I would think you'd be better off to upgrade the cable to the starter, and upgrade the alt b+ to the starter... There is not a lot of point in running two heavy cables to the engine. Although it can stop spikes from the starter blowing up the alt.  If you do, then both would need an isolating switch.   If the alt has a B- then I would also upgrade this to the engine block to reduce stray currents through block. 

Assume you are running a VSR or a Diode? 

[whitepointer 34]

18 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said:

Probably not. But would need to understand the End-to-End cabling. 

From what you have said, I would think you'd be better off to upgrade the cable to the starter, and upgrade the alt b+ to the starter... There is not a lot of point in running two heavy cables to the engine. If you do, then both would need an isolating switch.   If the alt has a B- then I would also upgrade this to the engine block to reduce stray currents through block. 

Assume you are running a VSR or a Diode? 

Boat already had a separate  wire, approx 25mm direct from alt to start battery via isolation switch, also an older battery isolater between start and hose bank, so with alt upgrade to 120 amp I thought I would upsize to 50mm,  im also now using a blue seas VSR,  so yes a think I will keep the alt b+ to starter wire aswell