Sporting conduct

[Fusion 0]

Great post Sevenseas.

 

As a parent about to enter the Opti word with D1 almost 7 its good to get a positive post.

[Guest]

JK, I want to expand on my view on 15 being too old for opti...

It isn't that the kids are too big to be competitive. At that age, experience counts for a lot more than size. When I was 17, at 55-60kg I could push the opti harder and faster than the 12yos could. (I know because I had swapped boats to let kids have a go in the starling.)

My opinion is more to do with the fact that between 12-15, kids are big enough that they should be sailing something faster and more challenging, not stuck in a bathtub because that's where the competition is at. If you take all the 13-15yos out of the opti, then you still have a big fleet. Lets face it they aren't really racing against the 50odd+ under 12's are they?

 

Now this isn't pointed at the kids or the parents. If IODA sets the age at 15, then if it were me, of course I would stay in the boat until 15 to get the best competition possible. I certainly wouldn't switch to a class with only a handful of sailors showing up at regattas. Unfortunately 15 is where the limit is set and it means there isn't another big fleet to step into until you reach Starling. If the limit were lower, that wouldn't be the case.

 

 

Perhaps the sportsmanship side isn't quite as bad as this thread makes out. The problem certainly is there simply because the sport, which should self regulate; doesn't; so the culture is "no protest, no foul". I think it is more to do with pushing the rules to the limit to get the best possible place for yourself than it is deliberate cheating, and I haven't seen swearing to the extent described earlier in the thread (but have noticed kids swearing a lot more in general than we used to!)

 

I can think of several tactics that were coached that were on the limit of the rules. One that was used by a sailor under "I" Flag - he sailed around and around the pin during the last minute, so the committee had no way of knowing how many times he'd been around and therefore couldn't penalise him if he went over in his final run to the start. I'm not going to name names as now we are older I have a lot of respect for this guy. (If you were there you might know who he is) This is what I mean by coaches encouraging the behaviour - I have heard people say "if no-one protests, don't do turns." Most kids don't know how to protest correctly and this means most of the time it is thrown out anyway. Those at the front know this, so if you don't do it correctly, they just shrug it off and sail away.

 

I often hear "do your turns, do your turns" - yet turns are always optional. The correct thing is to call "Protest *boat12345*" and leave the issue until after the race. It is up to the boat being protested to exhonerate themselves by doing turns if they agree in thinking they were in the wrong. A large number of kids skip the protest bit, then get upset when the other kid "cheats".

[Guest]

Turns are NOT optional.

 

If you KNOW you broke a rule, and you don't do turns because no one protested you, you ARE cheating.

 

You are breaking the Basic Principle at the start of the Racing Rules of Sailing which reads:

 

BASIC PRINCIPLE

 

Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a set of rules which they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire.

 

You are also breaking rule 2.

 

You're also a c***.

[Guest]

Bardy, essentially you are right but the decision to take them or not falls on the boat breaking(or not) the rules...

 

From Rule 44.1

A boat may take a Two-Turns Penalty when she may have broken a rule of Part 2 while racing or a One-Turn Penalty when she may have broken rule 31.

From Rule 2

A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated.

 

A breach of Rule 2 is a serious allegation that isn't taken lightly. You need to prove they knowingly and deliberately broke the rules. For this to work it needs to be something very blatant such as removing weights after weigh in, or doing anything else that is blatant and cant be argued. Even then, someone needs to protest!

 

By choosing whether to take a turn or not, you decide on how confident you are that you were in the right in the situation and you risk your placing based on that confidence. If there is no protest there is no risk. This inherantly results in the "no protest, no spin" attitude, or even a "if no-one else thinks I broke the rules, then I mustn't have done..."

 

In the case of taking a penalty turn - the word is may. Sure, what you pointed out states that you must take a penalty if you know you broke a rule, but often you don't know that until you get ashore and check the rule book. Even then, you might read it and still think you are in the right. So someone needs to protest!

Sometimes you will be looking at the gap between you and another boat and brush a mark without knowing it. In most situations, both boats think they are in the right and I have seen people argueing about it all the way up the course, then it gets dropped because no-one protests properly.

 

Since we are talking about kids here, we can't expect them to know all the rules, (maybe basics like hitting marks etc.) so how are you going to prove they broke Rule 2?

 

Basicly, what I am trying to say is that if there is no protest there is no penalty. The guys in the middle of the fleet all tend to do their spins, wheras a lot of those at the front will wait for someone to protest first. Even when there is a protest, you go to the committee, plead your case, then they decide to throw you a DSQ. For some people, that is worth the difference between a Top 5 and a 10+ they would otherwise drop.

 

Please dont take this as me saying I will be unsporting if you don't protest me. What I am trying to explain is that we need to create a culture where protesting is a good thing whether you turn out to be right or wrong as it is the only way to ensure we have fair sailing.

 

 

- As for your last sentence, how many c***s are currently being paid millions to drive 72ft speed machines???

[Guest]

By choosing whether to take a turn or not, you decide on how confident you are that you were in the right in the situation and you risk your placing based on that confidence. If there is no protest there is no risk. This inherantly results in the "no protest, no spin" attitude, or even a "if no-one else thinks I broke the rules, then I mustn't have done..."

 

In the case of taking a penalty turn - the word is may. Sure, what you pointed out states that you must take a penalty if you know you broke a rule, but often you don't know that until you get ashore and check the rule book. Even then, you might read it and still think you are in the right. So someone needs to protest!

I agree people SHOULD protest.

 

To say if there is no protest there is no risk is missing the point. The basic principle is not that if no one else protests you you don't have to do a turn.

 

I agree you can argue till the cows come home over the marginal cases. You can wordsmith a defence too if you think it's a grey area.

 

I am not talking about those situations. I am talking about when it is black and white. You broke a rule and you damn well know it. Just because no one protests you doesn't mean you shouldn't do a turn or that you don't need to do a turn. In those situations we should be teaching our kids to do their their turns regardless.

 

Since we are talking about kids here, we can't expect them to know all the rules, (maybe basics like hitting marks etc.) so how are you going to prove they broke Rule 2?

I am not. It doesn't matter whether the kid knows ALL the rules. If they know some of the rules, and they KNOW they broke one, if they chose not to do a turn, then they absolutely DID break rule 2. Someone else might not be able to prove it, but the basic principle says no one should NEED to prove it. We should be teaching our kids the basic principle, no exceptions.

 

If you KNOW you broke a rule, do your turn(s). No ifs. No buts. No arguments. Just do your turns if you KNOW you broke a rule.

 

Basicly, what I am trying to say is that if there is no protest there is no penalty.

Yes, I know. And what I am doing is calling you out, and saying that IF you KNOW you broke a rule, and you see no one is protesting, and you think "Sweet, then I don't have to do a turn." then you are cheating. You are breaking the basic principle, and you are doing it knowingly, and that is breaking rule 2, whether someone else can prove it or not.

 

And we should NOT be teaching our kids that that is how you sail.

 

The guys in the middle of the fleet all tend to do their spins, wheras a lot of those at the front will wait for someone to protest first.

And if that is true, the sailors in the middle of the fleet are the better people, and the ones at the front of the fleet are cheats.

 

Even when there is a protest, you go to the committee, plead your case, then they decide to throw you a DSQ. For some people, that is worth the difference between a Top 5 and a 10+ they would otherwise drop.

I agree protests can be lotteries. And the difference between a top 5 where you know you broke a rule, knowingly did not do a turn, and proudly took your top 5 knowing you are a cheat and a bad example of sportsmanship and a 10+ where your conscience is clean and you can look yourself in the mirror does not need to be explained.

 

Please dont take this as me saying I will be unsporting if you don't protest me.

But that is exactly what you advocated above. You said, and I quote you: Basicly, what I am trying to say is that if there is no protest there is no penalty.

 

What I am trying to explain is that we need to create a culture where protesting is a good thing whether you turn out to be right or wrong

And I completely agree with this.

 

as it is the only way to ensure we have fair sailing.

And I completely disagree with this. If you know you broke a rule, do a turn. That will lead to fair sailing too.

 

 

As for your last sentence, how many c***s are currently being paid millions to drive 72ft speed machines?

You seem to table that as evidence that that makes it okay. You seem to be arguing that you would teach your kid, if you cheat, and get away with it, as long as you get paid lots of money it is okay....

 

Sorry Gav, but you've just confirmed everything I ever thought about you.

[Guest]

So Black Ensign, you are saying if no-one sees you hit a mark you don't have to take a penalty? It doesn't say anywhere in the rules which rules are self enforcing, so all of them are I'd think.

Would you take a stroke if you accidentally moved your golf ball while removing a stick from in front of the ball that wasn't touching it.

 

I do agree that everyone needs to protest when they see something though.

I think that making the guy that files a protest a leper in the club is the root of the problem.

The delay for results makes the club more money over the bar while the waiting game is played.

[Guest]

If nobody sees you ...........

 

 

So ten years later you are grown up, have a job, and start racing keelboats, and it's OK to use an illegal sail after dark? Take a short cut on a long course if there are no boats around, leave the engine in gear while you charge the batteries.??????????????????

 

 

Time to go cruising, can't cheat there.

[Guest]

Scenario A. If you teach your kids to not do turns when they break a rule, they have no incentive to not break the rule in the first place.

 

Scenario B. If you teach your kids that when they know they broke a rule they MUST do their turns, and this leads to them saying "But no one else did any turns and look, I ended up out the back door" my advice to you is to reply "Well then, that should be a lesson to you... think and plan ahead, and when you are obliged to keep clear, keep clear. Don't break the rules and you won't have to do the turns."

 

In scenario A you end up with a morally bankrupt kid who keeps breaking the rules (because there is no disincentive not to) and who knowingly cheats and does not do their turns.

 

In scenario B you end up with a kid who tries to not break the rules, because they know if they do they'll pay the cost by having to do turns - and they want to remain competitive. I'd argue that the kid in scenario B is likely to end up being a much better yachtie too, with every chance of people wanting them to drive their 72 foot speed machine. I know if I had a 72 foot speed machine and was looking for someone to steer it I'd prefer a kid who graduated from the school of scenario B than scenario A... and I'd be well pleased that they were much less likely to end up dinging my 72 foot speed machine too - almost as much as I would be well pleased I wasn't going to have to walk into yacht clubs knowing my boat had cheated.

[Guest]

start racing keelboats, and it's OK to use an illegal sail after dark?

Damn, that one has never crossed my mind. I do carry a BIG sail aboard but never fly it when racing as it's knot declared.

But after dark.... Hmmmmmmm...

 

Na, a cheaters win is a hollow win and proves NOTHING except you're a cheat and don't even have the balls to be honest with yourself, let alone anyone else.

 

Protests are good for many reasons.

1 - you and/or the other boat learns the rules.

2 - it keeps people more honest if they know you will protest them.

3 - less boat damage is likely (connects with No 2 above)

4 - As noted above, the Clubs can do with the extra funds

5 - it's just a damn good talking point while waiting and speculating what the result will be.

6 - Red is the fastest colour so a Protest flag may just make your boat go quicker and save you having to fit a bigger keel

7, It's a goodie and a huge pile of fun. A little something I've used to win more than my fair share of protests so ain't telling you lot, as valid a point as it maybe

 

I think that making the guy that files a protest a leper in the club is the root of the problem.

I so totally agree with that I could kiss ya (ps. don't hold your breath waiting though). The number of times I've been told 'why bother', Oh don't do that' or 'You'll just piss off XXX' is scary but never stopped me. I just can't understand that mindset, it's just bollocks. People need to harden up and stand by their convictions.

[Guest]

Bardy, I agree with everything you have said, except you took it completely the way it was not intended. I am saying that this is what happens and saying that we need to teach kids to protest properly to keep the assholes in check.

You say what it should be, and under the basic principles you are totally correct - it is what we should be teaching. What I am saying is that calling someone out when they do cheat is also in the basic principles and also needs to be taught. In doing this we need to create an environment that is supportive of those who do file a reasonable protest.

 

"Confirmed everything you've ever thought of me"???

From what? A computer game? I would like to clarify for everone else that is reading that the two of us have never met. Perhaps you should talk to someone I have actually sailed with or against and see if they think I am a cheat. I am trying to bring peoples attention to what actually goes on and how to deal with it. Saying "but that is against the rules" doesn't stop it from happening unless you actually do something about it!

[Guest]

I think that making the guy that files a protest a leper in the club is the root of the problem.

I so totally agree with that I could kiss ya (ps. don't hold your breath waiting though). The number of times I've been told 'why bother', Oh don't do that' or 'You'll just piss off XXX' is scary but never stopped me. I just can't understand that mindset, it's just bollocks. People need to harden up and stand by their convictions.

 

This is the mindset in junior sailing - it's what I've been trying to say we need to correct, but people like Bardy have taken posts apart point by point and in doing so took them completely out of context.

Unfortunately the way the mindset works in kids is to pick on the one filing the protest, so after the first time they don't protest again...

[Farrari 4]

Out of interest, how many of the Yacht Clubs actually teach the kids how to protest and what to expect? I suspect that most learn by being protested at one stage or another. At this stage fear sets in because of the unknown. Education may be the key here.

 

Fear of the unknown can breed all sorts of unwanted behaviour.

[Guest]

Who thinks the RRS are too long and too complex?

[Guest]

I often hear "do your turns, do your turns" - yet turns are always optional.

Turns are NOT optional.

 

If you KNOW you broke a rule, and you don't do turns because no one protested you, you ARE cheating.

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying Gav. You say you were just saying what the culture is. That does not read that way - that reads like you saying you think that turns are always optional.

 

My last comment was based on your attitude that is apparent to me Gav, both in online racing and in these forums. In my opinion you come across, consistently, as an 'It's all about me' type. Sorry if that's unpalatable. Just calling it the way I see it mate. I may well be wrong, and if I am I am happy to take that on the chin.

[Guest]

Who thinks the RRS are too long and too complex?

They can certainly seem that way, especially to new comers.

 

In 2008 a mate of mine posted the following:

 

These links are shamelessly stolen from http://livesaildie.com

 

 

ISAF Announcement of the Introductory Rules of Sailing

 

The New Rules

[Guest]

Who thinks the RRS are too long and too complex?

The rules of the road part isn't too bad, the other seemingly 500 pages it a head f*ck though. Gone from a simple RoR to a bureaucratic nightmare. Very much starting to look like a job creation/retention scheme type publication.

[Guest]

In saying turns are optional, I mean that it is up to each skipper to decide whether he should do turns, not another skipper. If another skipper thinks he should be doing turns then that other skipper should be protesting. In hindsight, I definitely worded that incorrectly.

 

The basic principles of sportsmanship say you must take a penalty when you know that you have broken a rule. But if you are on the race course and don't think you broke a rule, or if you think you might have but are not totally sure, you always have the option to not take the turns penalty and to retire after the race once you have clarified what the rule is and discussed it with someone with more experience. Remember, if you do turns and later find out you hadn't broken a rule, you don't get redress. They are considered 'voluntary' turns. So really, someone yelling 'do your turns' is being unsportsmanlike (unless it really is something blatant like you say!)

[smithy09 50]

Sorry Squid, completely disagree. The RIBs full of knowledgable (sometimes VERY knowledgable, ie Olympic medallists, World champions, Ex AC crew etc) are already there.

What are they doing there? Just curious.

 

 

Thier kids are sailing.

 

Talking to some other parents last night (yeah, sailing Optis Tues, Wed Thurs) and they reckon it was about the same in Ps several decades ago....

[waterproof 0]

You think the opti sailing is bad for abuse, wait till your child starts team racing.They are actively encouraged to be extremely vocal and once out of the coaches ear range anything goes. If I had my way my son would never of joined teams racing he is now a quiet scared lad who is scared to say too much and sucks up to the abusers. those abusers then teach there crew to do the same and the cycle goes on. i have never sailed on a keel boat with abusive crew and never wish to. at the end of the day those enjoying themselves are the winners

[Noodles 0]

I think i need to extend on my post. the lad has been sailing for about 3 years, his father takes junior coaching for about 6 kids. not one time dose he teach the rules. these guys don't even know the basics eg port/starboard windward/leeward. I have had it with people who think they can join the racing, yet they don't know the basics. sooner or later a boat will be holed. its like on the road. you would expect a driver to know the basic road rules. so why not the basic sailing rules. so i hope everyone is clear as to why he got DSQ, to teach him a lesson.

 

 

Oh, and its not the first time its happened.