Sporting conduct

[Guest]

I have just come from a weekend of playing “opti-mum” with my daughter who sailed green fleet in the Interislander regatta at Queen Charlotte Yacht Club.

 

There were 35 green fleet boats and 80 odd in the open fleet, so big numbers when you come from a small club like Nelson where you’re usually looking at 5-10 on each start line. This is the 3rd year in a row we have been to this regatta as we have more than one kid sailor.

It was a real eye-opener this year to hear the amount of shouting and swearing going on at both the start line and the mark roundings. It seemed to me that the kids were shouting starboard whether they were in the right or not, just hoping that the other boat(s) would be intimidated and give way to them. One of our 10 y.o Nelson sailors was shunted backwards off the start line by another boat and although he eventually came 6th (he’s quite a good little sailor) the other boat came 1st. His dad encouraged him to put in a protest, which he did, but was told the next day that the green fleet weren’t accepting protests. This same kid was really quite upset by the swearing and verbal abuse levelled at him by the other sailors, particularly as he was in the top third of the fleet all the time. In fact the second morning briefing the whole fleet was told there were no protests. I observed at least one occasion of a boat parking up on the top mark, but no attempt was even made to do penalty turn as he knew he could get away with it.

Bear in mind that the age range of these kids is around 9-12 years old – what are we teaching them? At what stage should we be teaching them the “Sportsmanship” rule that is clearly stated in our regs? Which club coaches are instilling this aggressive behaviour in our kids and is it encouraged by YNZ? Should we encourage the “go hard or go home” attitude in our kids to the extent that only the obnoxious few stay in the sport? Or am I being an anxious mother who just wants to cotton-wool my kids? Don’t get me wrong, I’ve never liked the pc “there shouldn’t be any winners, only participation should be rewarded” thinkers that are now in our school system, I am a fairly competitive person and we all enjoy winning – but to what extent are we prepared to go?

 

And yes - I have sent a copy of this post to YNZ

 

PS No disrespect to QCYC intended here - couldn't fault the organisation and friendliness of the locals!

[Guest]

Check out the final quote, I'm with you on this one.

 

 

 

If there's a patron saint of yacht racing, it's probably Elvström

(b. 1928). His 4 Olympic gold medals, 19 medals at world

championships-among these 15 gold medals in 8 different boat types-8

European Championship titles and numerous victories at international

events all over the world illustrate this sailmaker, author and

designer's unparalleled understanding of the sport.

 

Elvström has

shared his immense knowledge of the sport for well over 40 years with

his books, articles, and speeches. Simply by being honorable in all his

endeavors, he has shown sailors everywhere the importance of

sportsmanship. All sailors would be wise to remember his most famous

quote: "You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost

the respect of your competitors."

[Variant 2]

I fully understand where you are coming from. I took my kids down to Lake Pupuke for a look at the Optis one morning, and some of the shouting going on had me thinking "WTF, get a grip". My kids are too youg to sail an Opti yet but it made me wonder if I even want them to get involved.

[w44vi 17]

There is a rule about "unsporting behavior" I know it has been used successfully for swearing at the nationals but my rule book is on the boat.

Did you make them aware of the situation?

But if the sailing committee won't allow protests then I guess your stuck

[Farrari 4]

Having been through this with my Daughter I can understand where you are coming from. From what I can see this behaviour is leant (mostly) from their parents and was certainly not taught by coaches at any Green Fleet training that my D attended. Certainly the clubs I have been involved with do not condone that sort of behaviour, even on club days.

 

One of the things I did see time and time again was trophy hunting at the green fleet level where kids that should have moved up to open fleet hang on to collect silverware. These kids know the rules and quickly learn how to intimidate the younger less experienced sailors. I don't think this is doing anybody any good IMHO. I would suggest that if the child is experienced enough to protest then they ought to be in open fleet.

 

Personally I also don't like the fact that some of these kids are staying in open fleet right up to the age limit (15). While many will weigh out as they grow, there are a small number that hang in there because they can.

[Guest]

Agree, some Opti (and many other boats and sports) parents are total shockers and need a good hard clip around the ear or just told to 'F**k off the beach' totally. I don't think you are off the mark or being too sensitive ecb.

 

I do Waterwise with a local school. They have a regatta once or twice a year where all the 9 schools play together. Turned up to one, with a pile of kids who had done probably a total of 10hrs in any boat let alone a yacht, only to find a couple of the other schools had spend the previous weekend practising with Olympic sailors/coaches. Then during he regatta their kids were encouraged to 'get close enough' to the marks and turn. We were the only ones who made their school actually go around the marks. Obviously we didn't do that flash due to that but I did make our kids and all the rest listening knew while we didn't get a win, we were the only mob to follow all the rules in a sportsman like manner and winning by dodgy is never a good feeling.

[Murky 1]

WTF, "good effort kids, that was close enough to the mark, now off to the next...er...general vicinity"? What a stellar life lesson for those schools to be teaching, can't wait for that generation to reach the workforce. Or the roads...

[Guest]

Rule 2 Part One RRS Fundamental rules - Fair sailing.

Honoured in the breach rather than the observance.

I've been on the jury at a couple of opti events. our presence tended to tone down the discussion and the other stuff, but I have the suspicion that when our backs weres turned shenanigans took place.

[Farrari 4]

The other thing that used to annoy me was the lack of respect for their boats. Some of these kids where sailing $6k+ boats and they would literally play dodgems with them. They would come up to marks knowing there was no room and just try and barge their way through. The starts were the worst. At least they were plastic so took some of the knocks. It doesn't teach them the correct behaviour IMHO and they very quickly learn they can't do that when/if they progress to a wooden boat.

[Guest]

"Agree, some Opti (and many other boats and sports) parents are total shockers and need a good hard clip around the ear or just told to 'F**k off the beach' totally. "

 

Actually there was one parent who the rest of us wanted to throw off the end of the jetty, he yelled at his kid after he only came mid-fleet in one race that it wasn't good enough!

Most of the other parents who were there were being very supportive of their kids and there was plenty of cheering and encouragement for the back-markers. Maybe Ferrari's comment about the front-markers not moving up to the open fleet when maybe they should is valid.

[Guest]

Actually there was one parent who the rest of us wanted to throw off the end of the jetty, he yelled at his kid after he only came mid-fleet in one race that it wasn't good enough!

That's sad and probably a serial killer in the making.

[Guest Rocket]

As a suggestion the opti clubs would do well to have a RIB behind the fleet at the start and at turning marks playing Judge. Amazing how clean the racing is when there is a hint of a judge boat around. They have a huge number of RIBs available - a knowledgeable person with a whistle would fix it in a day.

 

I am like a statue in the boat when I hear the judge boat sitting on my hip - and I never ever look around...

[JK 28]

A few points here...

 

This behavior is pretty much non existant at open fleet level where the kids are a bit older and know the rules & how to sail better. No one would get away with yelling starboard when on port, possibly barging at the marks but maybe they have been out to watch the 8Y8 fleet racing

 

Of late I have heard of a few kids that were still hanging around in Green Fleet after some good results being asked to move up to Open Fleet. I think that the racing is fairer anyway - certainly encouraged my kids to move up early for pretty much the same reasoning, was not keen on their boats being rammed by people who did not know what they were doing. Last years Nationals at least had umpire boats on the Open course so probably a regular thing. Green Fleet are permitted to be coached in the back 20% so there should be adults shadowing the back end of the fleet who I always thought should be encouraged to give a bit of a warning to people breaking the rules even if they did not have the autority of umpires.

 

Not too sure on the $6k for the boat, generally $3.5-4k for an ex-charter that is essentially new except for a regatta or two by overseas competitors. The plastic boats would only be seen in a Learn to Sail program, with the kids progressing to fibreglass ones. These days you would be lucky to see a single wooden one in an open fleet - maybe less than 1% & at the back of the fleet.

 

I have no problem with kids staying around until the age limit of 15 - it is after all the age limit, change it to 14 and you would have the same arguement. If they grow too tall or heavy they will move up to a bigger boat/class, if they stick around they are probably smaller/lighter & would not be competative in a P/Starling/Splash/Laser 4.7 or whatever. Better they keep up their interest & stay in an Opti than have their confidence bashed by being put into a larger boat when they are too small. Probably not correct to argue about kicking kids out of Green Fleet for trophy hunting & then wanting older kids kicked out because they are doing well.

 

Finally, with around 200 boats at a Nationals there are a number of very talented and very competative sailors. Personally I do not have an issue with kids who want to win rather than participate.

[smithy09 50]

A few points here...

 

This behavior is pretty much non existant at open fleet level where the kids are a bit older and know the rules & how to sail better. No one would get away with yelling starboard when on port, possibly barging at the marks but maybe they have been out to watch the 8Y8 fleet racing

 

With the greatest possible respect, you couldn't have been at the junior sail Auckland at Kohi 2 weeks ago!!!

 

Opti Open fleet have the same problem. There has been quite a bit of discussion about the tricks and cheating at top mark and start line, with the suggestion that the sailing instructions are changed at future regattas to allow on the water judges with power to impose penalties, and not just for the propulsion rule.. (Yes Rocket, I agree with you! Shock horror!). There are some top level sailors out there in Optis really taking the piss. There are also some top level Opti sailors that are incredibly sportsmanlike and will ALWAYS do their turns. The bad eggs need to be pinged for sure.

Also, when my son ends up at the back of the fleet because he has been 15 sec late for the start or something equally stupid, I give him a hard time too, but not in front of others, and no abuse. If he sails hard but just gets bad breaks, then fine, I am happy, as long as he tries hard. It's a fine line between a bit of a push to wake them up, and abuse with the kid ending up hating sailing....

[Guest]

When I was a kid racing P's etc, you never cheated, you never tried to cheat, it was unheard of. You wouldn't be able to face your friends when you got back to the beach.

Things have changed, and not for the better.

[Farrari 4]

Not too sure on the $6k for the boat, generally $3.5-4k for an ex-charter that is essentially new except for a regatta or two by overseas competitors. The plastic boats would only be seen in a Learn to Sail program, with the kids progressing to fibreglass ones.

 

Plastic was in reference to fibreglass not the plastic learn to sail ones. Some of the top of line packages for Optis are getting up there in price. Try pricing up one of the top racing packages, Xtreme hull & foils, Giulietti black top rig and Norths blue sail etc. You won't get much change from $6K. Having said that many are out there in $2-3K boats but the point was referencing the respect for the gear (and other competitors gear).

 

In terms of sportsmanship I have seen blatant cheating from top kids who ought to know better at major competitions with parents in RIBs watching. As soon as an official boat comes anywhere near they become a model citizen just like Rocket said. I have also heard first hand the older kids call port on those that have just jumped up from Green fleet so it does happen.

 

Fortunately the majority of kids out there are behaving appropriately with very supportive parents on shore.

[Atom Ant 0]

WTF, "good effort kids, that was close enough to the mark, now off to the next...er...general vicinity"? What a stellar life lesson for those schools to be teaching, can't wait for that generation to reach the workforce. Or the roads...

They're gonna pay your pension - or will they?

[JK 28]

Smithy, I was at the Junior Sail Auckland regatta, unfortunately did not get to observe the starts/marks but was on the finish boat all day Sunday & with around 130 sailors in two divisions and 3 races saw only a handful of incidents of which only 1 resulted in no penalty taken. That incident was a port/starboard around 20m from the finish of the last race between two members of the same club at the back of the fleet. We let them know there should have been a penalty or protest & it was not OK for them to agree between themselves to do nothing.

 

I have two sailors at each end of Open who had no complaints, although the Green fleet sailor did sustain a bit of damage, can't be 100% sure of who was to blame but all OK with the other father. They have learned to avoid the top mark pileups, a pretty easy way of picking up places. I agree that umpire boats should be used more, with the size of the fleets it would help things a lot but is an extra load on the clubs. As for the language, my daughter has been out on Wednesday night races at Westhaven & raised her eyebrows at the language she heard, not really something I liked having my 13year old hear but I guess she has heard it all before.

 

I did hear one of the top level sailors call port on my 11yo son shortly after he had moved up from green fleet, he responded by asking the sailor if he was stupid, similar to his response to being asked to give more room on the start line. Not saying that trying to intimidate other sailors itnto giving way is acceptable, just if the sailors are confident enough they are not going to take it.

[smithy09 50]

Hi JK.

 

I heard from the Murrays Bay Y1 boat, right on the pin end (favoured much of the weekend) that several of the top 10 sailors were coming into the line up late next to a weaker sailor, barging them either up or down (with contact) to make a space, then getting great starts. They reported it was endemic.

 

I was at the top mark myself and saw numerous incidents throughout the fleet where sailors got caught with the tide, hit the mark or another boat, and did no turns. My son ended up sitting on the mark (his fault) but every time he came back on starbord he had a port tacker either tack him or hit him, and/or hit the mark. He was the only one who did turns. There were probably 5 boats who also infringed who did not do turns. I also saw a similar pile up in the top 5 in the last race at the top mark (strong tide) but the wrong party did do turns..

It is certainly getting quite bad, and I would like to see on water umpires with powers to clean it up..

Maybe it was not so bad at the top end of the fleet. We were around the halfway mark, where it was very tight and you could lose 20 places in a heartbeat..

[Guest]

A guy I used to work with tells me he gave up yachts and went windsurfing after going to nationals for Starlings.

He spent quite a bit of time renovating his own boat, and was at the front of the fleet but got pissed off with other guys with no regard to their own or anyone elses vessels barging, refusing to give way on port etc as detailed in the previous posts.

This was starlings, not Opti's and about 15 years ago, so this is not something new guys.