DDF 0 Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Boat A touches top mark W/L race sails away to clear mark does gybe and starboard tack heading at right angles to bottom mark, stopped. Boat B comes around top mark and sails at right angles to to proper coursebecause having trouble rounding the mark. Question has Boat A completed penalty turn once sails filled on the tack although only competed 270 degrees of turn, does it infringe on boat B Link to post Share on other sites
col j 0 Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 penalty turn is one tack and one gybe as far as i know Link to post Share on other sites
johnMi 2 Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 For a start if he hits top mark, doesn't he have to reround top mark, If you are doing a penalty, you must keep clear of other boats, so that is up to the time that the tack (if it's a jibe, then tack) is completed. I would say that the turn is not completed, (that is not going back to the bottom mark) Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 For a start if he hits top mark, doesn't he have to reround top mark, No. If you are doing a penalty, you must keep clear of other boats, so that is up to the time that the tack (if it's a jibe, then tack) is completed. I would say that the turn is not completed, (that is not going back to the bottom mark) Correct. Also, until you start doing your turn, you retain your rights (and obligations) in relation to other boats. That is to say until you begin your first tack or first gybe in the turn(s) you DO NOT have to keep clear, except as required normally under the RRS (i.e. windward boats, boats clear astern must keep clear, etc.). You are however obligated to get well clear of other boats and begin your turn(s) as soon as possible. Case law establishes that your turn starts when you either when you begin your tack (if you are doing the tack first) or begin the gybe (if you are gybing first). Note that if tacking first, your tack bgins (as per when rule 13 - Keep clear while tacking) when you pass head to wind... the part where you are heading up towards head to wind is a luff, not part of the tack... (If you are gybing first, then 'Gybing' starts when your boom crosses the centreline...) The turn continues as long as you are still continuously turning in the same direction until you have completed one tack and one gybe... or if doing a 720 the turnS continue, as long as you are still continuously turning in the same direction until you have completed two tacks and two gybes. During the turn(s) you are obligated to keep clear. Link to post Share on other sites
DDF 0 Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 Thankyou for the reply Can accept Boat A has to complete full 360 degree turn from point of gybing as thats the definition of the start of the turn.Is boat B allowed to not sail a proper course including having a very wide rounding of the mark and thereby sail into a situation where it calls interferece from the turning boat. Link to post Share on other sites
Marshy 30 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Becomes a bit of a hazy one there. You would basically have to prove they werent sailing their proper course and hit Rule 23.2 on them... 23.2 Except when sailing her proper course, a boat shall not interfere with a boat taking a penalty or sailing on another leg. http://www.ukhalsey.com/blog/post/New-Rule-232.aspx Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 21.2 A boat taking a penalty shall keep clear of one that is not. Boat taking the penalty keeps clear. Simple. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 No, not if the reason for sailing that course was to interfere with the boat doing the turn... but if Boat B is having trouble bearing away and sails said course for that reason, Say a jammed vang or mainsheet etc. that's likely to be different. Who actually needs to keep clear and when depends on the situation and timing of the boats coming together... If Boat B got to Boat A JUST AFTER Boat A started their turn(s) then Boat A didn't get "well clear" of other boats as required by rule 44.1 before starting their turn(s). If Boat B got to Boat A JUST AFTER Boat A completed their turns then it would depend on their positions windward/leeward and clear ahead/clear astern of each other. If Boat B got to Boat A mid way through Boat A's turn(s) then Boat A would probably need to abort their turn(s) and get well clear again before restarting them. Proper course is defined as the course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boat(s) involved in the rule... If Boat B was having trouble bearing away due one or more of a gust, a jammed vang or mainsheet, the helmsan having lost hold of the tiller etc. then Boat B IS (arguably) sailing a proper course, because in the circumstances that is the course they would sail in the absence of Boat A... they are trying to bear away but having difficulty doing so... But if Boat B was not having difficulty bearing away and were sailing that course SOLEY because they were CHOOSING to go an mess with Boat A, then Boat B is in the wrong. (rule 23.2) Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 21.2 A boat taking a penalty shall keep clear of one that is not. Boat taking the penalty keeps clear. Simple. No, it's not simple. As stated by Marshy and I, Rule 23.2 limits the boat not taking a penalty - you can't just go and mess with a boat taking a penalty or aboat on another leg because you feel like it... Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Hard to prove the other vessel is not sailing her proper course given its a mark rounding Marshy. Also the onus to on the boat taking a penalty to prove the other vessel was not sailing her course. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Hard to prove the other vessel is not sailing her proper course given its a mark rounding Marshy. Also the onus to on the boat taking a penalty to prove the other vessel was not sailing her course. Given that the original post stated that Boat B was sailing "at right angles to to proper course because having trouble rounding the mark"... I interpreted "proper course" in this sentence as meaning the bearing to the next mark... if so, then it is relatively hard to argue that 90 degrees to the bearing to the next mark is a proper course as per the definitions because at 90 degress you'd never close on the mark... but as I noted above the "because having trouble part" (if it means a knoted/jammed vang or mainsheet) could mean it was arguably a proper course in the short term. Link to post Share on other sites
Marshy 30 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Yeah totally. Hence i said its a very Hazy Argument. But i have seen it argued before. Depending on the conditions. If like said earlier if it was windy and boats had trouble bearing away etc then sweet. But there is also a responsibility of the other boats to carry on their normal proper course which is defined as "A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats" without going out of their way to interfere with other boats. Not often would people want to interfere with someone who is doing turns either to be honest! More likely to stuff yourself up than them. Its definitely not a black and blue argument, and as you say the boat doing the penalty turn normally would have to prove the other boat stood on or didn't sail their proper course and interfered which isn't that easy really! Hence why you will see people doing their turns slightly to windward of the top mark rather than directly abeam of it to reduce this risk. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Boat A touches top mark W/L race sails away to clear mark does gybe and starboard tack heading at right angles to bottom mark, stopped. Boat B comes around top mark and sails at right angles to to proper coursebecause having trouble rounding the mark.Question has Boat A completed penalty turn once sails filled on the tack although only competed 270 degrees of turn, does it infringe on boat B let me guess...stewarts or 88's Link to post Share on other sites
PaulR 3 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Touching or capturing the top mark on the rudder and towing 500m up the harbour are two different issues in S34 land. Link to post Share on other sites
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