Kiteroa 8 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I know there's another tread about this somewhere but can't find it. I wanted to get rid of the wire lines on WT, so for anyone else who has the same idea, Fineline has put together a custom braid for me that looks really nice. It's a 4mm diameter Dynex75 core with a very tightly wound black poly uv/chafe guard cover. The finished diameter is 5mm and it's far nicer than anything I could find off the shelf. It also matches the break load of 4mm 1/19 wire. They will produce it for $5 per meter to anyone off the street if they are keen. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Keen if its legal for Cat 3 thanks WT. The search function is useless - what was the outcome of the debate of whether it was acceptable or not? EE Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I've gone fibre also but I'm using a different, nicer on my skin and stronger, product. Just make sure you size things correctly as pure the Regs. Some Inspectors are a tad nervous about this still. Somewhat understandable when there is a big change in something 'safety', as this is. Yes it is fully legal for Cats 1, 2 and 3. Only 'recommended' for Cats 4 and 5, just the same as if using wire. Just make sure what you use complies with the Regs, some aren't, WT's version should be fine. The finished diameter is 5mm and it's far nicer than anything I could find off the shelf. It's just a std dyneema cored braid as is commonly available but with a tight pic cover. Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 I've gone fibre also but I'm using a different, nicer on my skin and stronger, product. Just make sure you size things correctly as pure the Regs. Some Inspectors are a tad nervous about this still. Somewhat understandable when there is a big change in something 'safety', as this is. Yes it is fully legal for Cats 1, 2 and 3. Only 'recommended' for Cats 4 and 5, just the same as if using wire. Just make sure what you use complies with the Regs, some aren't, WT's version should be fine. The finished diameter is 5mm and it's far nicer than anything I could find off the shelf. It's just a std dyneema cored braid as is commonly available but with a tight pic cover. Standard Dyneema is pretty stretchy and weak. They used a propper hampidjan Dynex 75 core for their lifeline braid. But I know what you're saying, you have to get a really good fibre if you're going to go fibre lifelines. Not worth it if you're wanting it to save you at some. Knotme must be using a Dynex dux or a heat treated ocean 12 core if he's getting more than 2000kg from a 4mm core. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I'm in, I will have a measure up tomorrow WT. Looks good. Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Give fineline a call and ask them for the same as they made for me. It's not a stock product yet so you can't rock up and reel 50m off a roll. But they're great down there, I told them what I wanted on wednesday, by this morning they had made a custom roll for me and it was waiting to be picked up. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Do you need to have a pvc sleeve where it goes through the staunchion? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Err..... Dynex75 is a SK75 singe braid just like all the rest so it's no weaker or less stretchy than all the rest. What Hampies do is add more fibre so it can sometimes be stronger if you compare sizes called to size called. But it'll also be bigger i.e. what Hampies call a 4mm is what everyone else calls 5mm. They are all made with the exact same fibre coming out of DSM. Dynex is good stuff but then so are all it's equals, of which there are many. The Dynex name is more a 1st to market and good marketing story than anything different in the rope. It's also sort of become the generic name for dyneema with many. Outside of marine Dynex doesn't feature much really, it all goes back to Hampies breaking into the fishing fleets back in the day and it's grown in the marine industry from that. The most used worldwide version of that type of rope would be Samson's Amsteel and by a long long way. Mind you making a 5,000mt length of a 300mm rope does mean you'd use more than a couple of kg of the raw yarn per mt. Ropes like that are now used to anchor oil rigs rather than a mega tones of steel wire they used to use. There is still some SK60 and some Chyneema drifting around out there. Chyneema = chinese knock-off, very inconsistent and often has filler fibres in it. Both of those will appear weak and stretchy compared to the most commonly now used SK75 but only because they are. I'm using a firm pic SK78 over SK78HS. I'm putting the 5mm version on my top line, the 4mm one below. That would just give more to grab as many are used to grabbing way bigger tube covered wire. We use it in places on some superboats with all the fold out stuff they have going on these days and restraint lines, a couple of hard out ocean racers and for a couple of the extremist 4x4 competition winching dudes. Bbay, if you have sharp bits in your stanchion or elsewhere a fine file is the best option as it is still a fibre rope, all be it a flash one, but no reason you couldn't tube up if you like. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I remember reading that cat one required some sort of abrasion protection. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 The Regs say 'a single braid of a fancy fibre protected from UV and chafe by a sheath'. That's being read by most as 'a single braid with a cover' i.e. a double braid. But I'd argue a single braid thru the std sort of white hose would be OK also under that description. Personally I think a double braid is cleaner, lighter and way safer, you can see nasties starting to happen, should they ever try to stick their evil heads up. The same Regs applies to all Categories. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I have a 670mt Superboat and would like some lifelines please. Certainly Sir, I have just the rope for you. One of last weeks jobs, a gentle 56mm Amsteel Blue. Next to it is a 5mm SuperRound75 (an Italian version of the same thing). The big one has a min break load of 244 tonnes spliced. The big rope is a towline for a superboat currently in town, gawd knows what they are planning on towing though. It's close as the same size as Rigger would have fondled many times in his line of towing, which is the big heavy metals of our waterways. I serioulsy doubt any superboat would have the pull Rigger has........ bollard pull that is, I have no idea nor desire to know what he does with Mrs Rigger Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Standard Dyneema is pretty stretchy and weak. No, you're thinking Chineema. Which when I tested some on our test bed, some 8mm (was that the size KM) broke at around 250-500Kg'ish and the stretch was like 50% or more.(I need to get my test book to get the actual specs) I then tested our "real stuff". I wrapped 4 turns around the Bollards and the Bollards are pulled apart by two 3m long rams and can apply 12000Kg of pull. (KM did we take pics of those bollards). The breaking point should have been up around the 5000Kg mark. At first I was a little dissapointed in how much it stetched. Then I realised it wasn't stretch, but that the Dyneema was actually strangling the Bollards I wrapped the line around to pull it. These Bollards were 80mm diameter with a 5mm thick wall section Steel pipe and about 200mm wide. I had calculated that the pipe should not be able to bend at 5000Kg. What I did not expect however, was to see the pipe reduced in daimeter. The Pipe simply shrunk down to a 60mm diameter in perfect round shape. If you understand what this means, it means a circle was squeezed in on itself. That is the hardest thing to ever do to any shape. A Circle is the strongest form when pressure is applied equally all around. I was astonished by what happened. The Dyneema did eventually break and it broke at just a shade under 3000Kg. But when I started to remove the length of test line, I founf that as the pipe was being squeezed, the heat generated by the Dyneema had vertually melted itself, which takes some heat and having it break at 3000Kg with that kind of heat generated, is really something. Link to post Share on other sites
PaulR 3 Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 PHOTOS please and when / where can we see a repeat test??? Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 I will try and remember to take pics on Tuesday. Link to post Share on other sites
PaulR 3 Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 I will try and remember to take pics on Tuesday. I have a small camera. What time but I have a few appointments on Tuesday, so may not be as free for boat stuff as I would like. Link to post Share on other sites
Tim C 23 Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 When we (I was on the YNZ committee) changed the rule for lifeline we simply brought them into line with international standards. I thought it was pity we didn't go a few sizes up simply from a handling point of view, but it was easiest to go with existing rules . Falling on a 5mm piece of rope will feel a bit like falling on a cheese grater at pace... Personally, on a cruising boat I would go for 8-10mm spectra or similar, rather than a smaller line with a cover, as a top line. You get far more strength as well obviously. So an inspector could have concerns about chafe protection around stanchions. Up to you to make it chafe protected and serviceable... Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 I'm planning on putting the standard plastic cover over the top lifeline, so going larger isn't really beneficial handling wise. Going up a size on rope for me makes no sense from a strength or weight perspective if what I have is good for 2 ton. A larger diameter when wet will weight the same as wire. No point having a line with a break of 4 ton if your pushpit and pullpit can't support anywhere near that load. I would be very surprised if many rails on boats under 20m could withstand enough load to break the lines they are supposed to support. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Yes the 'falling on' to top rail was one thing I though about hence knot going down the polyester cover route. Mine has a real smooth slippery cover. Agree with WT on sizing and some tubing over the cockpit area for added comfort. The stuff I'm using is a lot stronger than it probably needs to be but it's more just that rope by it's make-up is just very strong. I do have the advantage of having many top end ropes close at hand, some many probably have no idea even exist. Agree with Tim re the cruising size, I'd go up also, as we have done for a few. Many have requested 8mm. On one it was pure white 12mm dyneema cored but then that one was 40mts odd long. 2T max in the lab WT. Once fitted it'll be less, probably around 15% odd less. Hammpies run max seen values, something to watch for as many others use differing methods when stating break loads. As a FYI, Samson are a very good more accurate guide. Their numbers include terminations and as we al know all ropes have to be terminated somehow. Fineline tend to run average break loads erring on the lower seen end, Donaghys was max seen but are slowly working towards what Samson do hence you may notice the odd weird number in their paperwork. 12mm racing braid only 200kg below a 14mm, WTF?? The 12mm was max calculated and the 14mm was from some testing we did for some helechopters and includes terminations. We always send any numbers we get to the respective manufacturers, it keeps them honest Na, they are all pretty good and know that as they use the same yarn on the same machines their numbers shouldn't be that different than the other guys. Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I have a small camera. What time but I have a few appointments on Tuesday, so may not be as free for boat stuff as I would like. Eeer, so wht exactly is it you want pics of Paul The squished Bollards? or the actual pull test? Because to watch a complete test, you may want to give KM a quick call before hand and arrange a time.I have been away all last week and have no clue hopw busy things are going to be when I start again on Tuesday. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 You boys should be videoing all your pull tests anyway, chuck the video in the boat folder and you have a record of the test for future reference should you ever need it. And KM doesn't have any compliance issues with visitors wandering round the workplace or having to get dressed up in those silly black shiny rubber 'safety' suits you insist on wearing when you are conducting a pull test together. The suits alone would squash your bollards they are that tight. Just a suggestion. EE Link to post Share on other sites
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