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G'day,

 

Answers and corrections to various posts in this thread follow, starting from page 1. All proa stuff, so don't read it if you are anal about thread topics.

 

Samin,

The reason there are no race results is all the harryproas built so far have been cruisers, for non racing owners. There are currently 3 x 15m and 2 x 12m sailing and a dozen or so, including 2 x 18m, being built. Plus half a dozen prototypes I havbe built over the years. The harryproa didn't win the cruising division (there isn't one) of the Brisbane Gladstone race, it pulled out with a broken rudder pintle (19mm ss pin, crevice corrosion) at about the half way point.

 

I presume the boat near Frantic Drift is W? If so, it is a 12mx 7m cat (not a proa) I designed and built 10+ years ago, also for a non racing owner. It weighed 650 kgs when launched, ready to sail. It was modified (headroom and cabin) to fit the Coastal Classic requirements, but was arbitrarily banned from entering by the NZMYC before it was even launched. It has since been extensively shagged about with as the owner likes trying different ideas more than he likes sailing.

 

Scottie E, Rod Boy (and TC from the Seacart thread),

The 700 kgs (it will be less, how much less depends on various decisions yet to be made) is the sailing weight of a 15m harryproa I am building as a family weekender. Build starts in July, launch in October, all going well.

 

How confident am I about the 700 kgs? I calculated it the same way I did the weight of Blind Date, a 15m harryproa cruiser which takes blind people sailing in Holland. BD has 2 queen sized doubles, 3 singles, covered cockpit seating for 8, 2m headroom in both hulls, full fit out (faired and painted interior, proper toilet, galley, nav station) and is a low tech build. It is immensely strong and very well built. When launched, it weighed 1,800 kgs. The owner didn't believe it, got another crane. Same result. The unstayed, balanced rig added another 200 kgs (~150 mast+ 50 boom). My calcs said 2,000 kgs.

 

There is a video of Rare Bird (a 3+ ton version of Blind Date) at

. Sailing at wind speed under main and jib according to the journalist on board. Do you know of any videos of other sub half million dollar cruisers doing this? I leave it to you to extrapolate how fast a 2 tonne version would go, and the potential of a 0.7 tonne version.

 

Samin,

Your proposed race sounds like fun. How much accommodation has your boat got?

 

Speed and space are two of the three main elements to a successful boat. Cost is the third. How much would it cost to build/replace your boat?

 

A fourth indication of a successful boat is how easy it is to sail. So let's make it a solo race. Take your pick on the distance. 1, 10 or 100 mile w/l?

 

I'd hate to see you filling your boat full of holes, so let's make it a bit more conventional, and wager a carton of Mount Gay for the winner? Any of you other sceptics who want in on the wager, say so. If Rod boy or anyone else wants to put their money where their mouth is on the weight, they should also speak up.

 

Samin's brother's proa was not a harryproa. There are more differences between conventional proas and harryproas than there are between Pivers and Farriers.

 

regards,

 

Rob Denney

http://www.harryproa.com

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Scottie E, Rod Boy (and TC from the Seacart thread),

The 700 kgs (it will be less, how much less depends on various decisions yet to be made) is the sailing weight of a 15m harryproa I am building as a family weekender. Build starts in July, launch in October, all going well.

 

I thought Dave was referring to a 15m offshore capable racing proa - what's the 'sailing weight' of that?

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See other thread for weight of crew/gear/safety gear like Anchors, Chain, Rodes, various communication equipment.

 

In our case that's 450 kg.

So someone saying they're doing a racing boat with all that that weighs 700 kg (Cuck oooooo)

 

I realise it is only being sailed by 1 x person but that is mostly because no one else is mad enough to sail on it, and if they did there would be nothing for them to do.

 

cuckooo

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I would say that there is a gauntlet been thrown down here for one of the proafiles to enter in the Coastal Classic 2009 and blow multihull fleet away. In theory a racing 18m proa should be faster than anything else, in practice we wait to see. To finish first, first you have to finish and before that you have to cross the start line. There is also a serious amount of predujice coming through which I find amazing in a multihull group. It is to be expected from the leaner fraternity, but for goodness sake we got over the plastic sandals in socks image (pivers and warrams tacking thorugh 120degrees to windward) 20 yrs ago. If it has got more than one hull and no permanent ballast (lead or similar) then bring it on, anything goes.

 

An aside: interesting that an built underweight 8.5m becomes a leadmine with lead glued into the floor !!!

 

Regrds TimB

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Yes they are 100% welcome to race either with the NZMYC or in the Coastal. No problems at all.

They just need to comply with the relevant safety requirements, same as everyone else.

 

If that "W" thing wants to race, it can.

But to say the NZMYC banned its entry in the Coastal before it was even launched!

Does it, or could in comply with cat3? I don't think so.

It has about 600mm of freeboard, so would need a 1m tall cabin plus at least 1x bunk etc

Then you would need someone to sail it.

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Samin,

Your proposed race sounds like fun. How much accommodation has your boat got?

 

Speed and space are two of the three main elements to a successful boat. Cost is the third. How much would it cost to build/replace your boat?

 

A fourth indication of a successful boat is how easy it is to sail. So let's make it a solo race. Take your pick on the distance. 1, 10 or 100 mile w/l?

 

I'd hate to see you filling your boat full of holes, so let's make it a bit more conventional, and wager a carton of Mount Gay for the winner?

 

Its a Crowther Buccaneer 24.

 

2 single bunks and 1650mm head room. Ok for a couple to spend 9 consecutive nights on.

 

Your a designer you can work out the replacment cost.

 

Its setup for 3 crew so 2 handed would be a fair compromise.

 

2 laps of a 2 mile W/L course.

 

The wager sounds fair,

 

Let me know the time and place, sounds like fun!

 

Cheers

 

Sam

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G'day,

 

 

Scottie E, Rod Boy (and TC from the Seacart thread),

The 700 kgs (it will be less, how much less depends on various decisions yet to be made) is the sailing weight of a 15m harryproa I am building as a family weekender. Build starts in July, launch in October, all going well.

 

Rob Denney

http://www.harryproa.com

 

dude...... lets make it quite clear that if you can build a 15m proa, that is capable of doing a coastal classic, that ways in at 750 kg on launch day then I think i will owe you a bottle of rum......and an appology.....

 

but you will not..... :)

 

I think you may make 2 hulls that way this much....or one hull and one other thing.....

 

I could claim that my boat weighs in at 400kg..... it probably would if I took the mast off, took the beams off, took the sails off and took all the safety gear off...... but thats not what EVERYONE CARES ABOUT..... we CARE ABOUT THE actual sailing weight.....as thats what you go sailing with......

 

i dont disapprove of proas , I think that if the multihull yacht club baned it from the coastal after it had a valid cat3 certifcate then that was pretty bad, but i dont know the full story........I am looking for forward to seeing you on the race course..... do you have any links to a blog that will cover the build process ? it could be interesing ?

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Following are some numbers from the weight spreadsheet for my boat. Apart from the windward hull, it has all been engineered so I am confident the component weights are correct. Dave/Squid would only need half as much windward hull, and there is 20-30 kgs to be saved from having a tube mast instead of the telescoping wing mast rig. A canted tube mast would make the boat self righting.

 

Dave may also want to build the hulls from carbon as the small amounts required are not that big a cost. I have used glass as the Classe 50 (French 15m multihull organisation, Crepes Wahou and co) requires it and they asked me to enter a harry in next years Route de Rhum (solo France to Guadeloupe) as they want to maximise their publicity. Bit full on for me, so I have got an ex mini 650 sailor to charter the boat, with a smaller windward hull.

 

Lee hull:

Surface area hull, deck and bulkheads, overlaps and tabbing 40 sq m

Base laminate weight, 3.5 kgs/sq m

Additional stiffening and local beefing up for mast bearings 30 kgs

Paint and bog 10

 

Lee hull weight: 180 kgs

 

Windward hull:

Surface area incl deck, bulkheads, overlaps and tabbing 54 sq m (Dave's is 25 sq m)

Laminate weight 3.5 kgs/sqm

Paint and bog 11

 

ww hull weight: 200 kgs

 

Beams 7.5m x 200mm dia tubes, including reinforcing at the hulls 18 kgs each = 36 kgs

 

Rudders, rudder mounts, tillers and extensions: 20 kgs each = 40 kgs

 

Mast and boom: ~80 kgs (non telescoping one will be 20-30 less)

 

Sail, tramp, rigging, cleats and blocks: ~45 kgs

 

Ready to sail: 581 kgs

 

Safety gear for solo Transpac which I would like to do next year: 180 kgs Includes spares and nav equipment, not sure how it relates to the requirements for Cat 1 or Cat 3 in NZ, but seems close to what Mr Wolf has on his boat, so probably close

 

Ready to race, ex crew, food and water: 761 kgs

 

The list does not include:

Daggerboards, cases and the hull strengthening these require. Harryproas have oversize, liftable rudders, mounted on the beams. They kick up without damage in a grounding or collision, are much easier to clean plastic bags and weed off and can be partially or fully lifted to balance the helm or reduce wetted surface.

 

Shrouds, stays, forebeams, chainplates, rigging screws, traveller, winches, jammers, spreaders, dolphin or seagull strikers, jib tracks, turning blocks, and all the reinforcing and fasteners these items require.

 

Jibs, screechers, spinnakers and their sheets and halyards. The rig is a single 50 sqm mainsail on an 18m tall x 600 chord unstayed wing mast which telescopes down to 10m. The boom is self vanging and the controls (halyards, sheet and downhauls) are 3 or 4:1 blocks and tackles.

 

Much bog: The boat is built almost entirely from full length fully or partially glassed flat panels. These are bagged on a table and bent to shape in simple moulds so the surface is fair and ready for paint. All joins have radiuses and/or rebates for the joining glass. Little or no bog and fairing is required. This is a simplification of Derek Kelsall's KSS technique, made possible because there is no rocker in the hulls. We built a 15m hull and decks using KSS last year. Bit of a cock up with the bending and extra glassing so it weighs 200 kgs. Based on the time this hull took and the refinements to the build system, I am pretty confident my boat will be built in about 500 hours.

 

Pulpit (there is no need to go outside the beams), bunk boards and floors (integral with the structure) and wind instruments (with one sail you are either overpowered or not).

 

Samin,

Forgot to mention yesterday, proas are not legal under ISAF, so would not be allowed in the AC. The French shorthanded race organisers and Classe 50 are trying to get the ban lifted, as it applies to the type of proas that were around 30 years ago, which had serious problems. These have all been addressed by harryproas, which are now arguably the safest performance multihull type there is. Look forward to the race.

 

Wolf,

I design simple, fast boats. If you want something apart from tactics, sail shape, steering and opening beers to keep your mates occupied on the boat, talk to a conventional designer. Complexity is what keeps them in business.

 

Re the banning. Ask Jason, ex Split Enz and NZMY Commodore at the time. He visited us in the shed, before the boat was even joined together or rigged and told us we could not enter regardless of whether the accommodation etc qualified (it did) or how many miles we sailed pre race. The boat looked a bit different back then to what it does now and we had a pretty hot crew lined up to sail it.

 

Rod Boy,

Let me know which of the above numbers you find hard to believe, and why.

 

W (a cat, not a proa) did not have a cat 3 certificate, but would have got one if we applied. Not much point after we were told it would make no difference. It was a long time ago, no hard feelings, I was just setting the record straight.

 

No build blog, but if you join the yahoo harryproa chat group in July, any updates and pictures will be there.

 

regards,

Rob

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goodness sake we got over the plastic sandals in socks image (pivers and warrams tacking thorugh 120degrees to windward) 20 yrs ago.

 

Now they just wear Crocs - I'm not sure which looks worse :shock:

 

Wharram actually designed and built a proa decades ago. He flipped it and went back to cats. Many other designers have a proa lurking away in their back catalogue.

http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/index.ph ... co-volante

Some good links here.

http://www.wingo.com/proa/links.html

Russell Brown (son of Searunner designer Jim) probably has the most contemporary experience with this type of boat. There is a race report at the bottom of this page.

http://www.wingo.com/proa/brown/jzerrophotos.html

 

However in the size range of boat I'm interested in (7-8 metres) they don't cut it. I imagine this Kurt Hughes 8 metre design would be fun to go for a ride on but I wouldn't want to cruise it.26proa1.jpg

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