Why hasn't someone...

[Atom Ant 0]

OK possibly a silly question but I've often wondered why someone doesn't design a big paper tiger? Say an 8.5 for arguments sake, planing hulls, perhaps without the reverse sheer we all know & love. Would it be a weapon or a dog?

[Guest]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motor ... 225348.htm

[Guest]

We have conformation.

 

Yes it was a silly question

[Atom Ant 0]

Thanks wise guys! I was thinking more along the lines of something a bit racier - which was why I used the example of an 8.5 seeing as they appear to be race focused. That shining example Squid put up isn't exactly a racing version. Probably skids along ok though?

[Guest]

Back in the day they were racers but time has moved on.

 

Cheers,

Wise Guy Jnr

 

I do bow my head to Mr Squids vastly superior wiseguyness

[MrWolf 0]

OK possibly a silly question but I've often wondered why someone doesn't design a big paper tiger? Say an 8.5 for arguments sake, planing hulls, perhaps without the reverse sheer we all know & love. Would it be a weapon or a dog?

 

Its a very dated hull shape, you can do a lot better.

[ScottiE 174]

the GBE was originally envisaged as a tortured ply boat and of course JT has done a lot better with the shape on Attitude and Epsom Salts. Brucie's little mini multi has some just awesome curves goin' on - bend it till it breaks!

[broadoak 0]

A bigger version of the Paper Tiger was built. It was called a Tiger Shark They were 18' long and had a beam of 8' so they could be put on a trailer. Ours had 2 on trapeze. They were all grp and lots of fun to sail. We widened ours to a beam of 10' so we could push it harder. We regularly beat the Hobie 18'. A frind of ours who also widened his ran a gennaker as well. That made it exciting in a bit of a chop!

[samin 0]

OK possibly a silly question but I've often wondered why someone doesn't design a big paper tiger? Say an 8.5 for arguments sake, planing hulls, perhaps without the reverse sheer we all know & love. Would it be a weapon or a dog?

 

It would be a dog. The hull shape would be very draggy in light airs, potentially fast in the breeze but all round not a winner.

 

The Formula 28 "Charlston" is basically a 28ft beach Cat with a modern hull shape but miles away from the 8.5 class which is promoting a multi use boat.

[Guest]

It would be a dog.

 

I dissagree sam, I think saying it would be a dog might be exagerating somewhat.

 

For sure it wouldn't be the most optimal hull shape , but I think that you would be surprised if someone actually built a racing version how well it might go.

 

And I would have also thought that hard chine plywood construction would fit right in with the 8.5 class rule intent ? to promote cost effective racing ?

 

 

how many chines do you need to have before you couldn't tell the difference between a curved hull and a chined hull ? ...1, 2 , 3, 5 , 8 ? ?

 

 

....and what is a dog these days anyway ? ...anything thats not a cat I guess.

[Clive 13]

It would be a dog.

 

For sure it wouldn't be the most optimal hull shape ....

 

What is optimal hull shape now?

Has the research been done and XYZ is the optimal shape or is it still finger in the air/design fashion?

[Guest Saturday Night Special]

It would Be cheap to build But being Flat panneled it may flex a bit .saying it would be a dog is not a great statement hard chine hulls have always been dismissed the only reason the new ply tries are tortures is to create panel stiffness out of a very light pywood stucture.

[Guest]

A big Paper Tiger,Ron Given did , its called a Gulf Tiger & it fits the 8.5 rule every count.And I can assure its not a dog ,I have one was the handicap boat Otago Yacht Club for a number of years & has done the Auckland Dunedin round trip a couple of times,depending on my health & with luck you may well see it race B.O.I race week.

[Clive 13]

A big Paper Tiger,Ron Given did , its called a Gulf Tigre

 

Or the modern version ... Tigre.

 

http://www.givencats.com/q_getboataspect.cfm?id=30

 

Designed to Formula 28 rules, “TIGRE” also meets the NZMYC 8.5metre class rules Constructed from composite strip planking, marine ply, foam, fiberglass, and small amounts of Kevlar and carbon fibre this craft was built for club racing and short term weekend cruising. Some experimentation in hullform, crossbeams, rig profile and layout has been applied here in an attempt to get improved allround sailing performance. The 860kg dry wt combined with a length/beam ratio of 59% allows hull flying in moderate conditions, all aimed at better windward speed and angles. There are a generous amount of sail/rig adjustments making it a real enthusiast’s catamaran, not for the beginner. Basic accommodation consists of a single berty fwd in each hull, a removable chemical toilet,and tiny galley.Headroom is to NZMYC 8.5 rules (max 1.6m in main cabin area). Motive power is by a 15hp outboard in a central pod behind the mast. Motor and pod fold up for extra clearance This catamaran is not recommended for amateur construction.

[GregW 28]

The nearest thing to a PT with a cabin is probably Rons 25 foot Turbo Tiger, to the Micro Multihull Rule, from the early 80s. There were supposedly hard chine and round bilge options. I don't know whether any were built, or whether it was just a concept for the symposium held around that time. Ron wasn't interested in supplying plans when I asked him about 4 years ago.

[samin 0]

It would be a dog.

 

I dissagree sam, I think saying it would be a dog might be exagerating somewhat.

 

For sure it wouldn't be the most optimal hull shape , but I think that you would be surprised if someone actually built a racing version how well it might go.

 

And I would have also thought that hard chine plywood construction would fit right in with the 8.5 class rule intent ? to promote cost effective racing ?

 

hard chined tri fast

 

hard chined cat not fast

[Guest]

Also don't get mistaken for the shape being a "planning type" remember that longer slender hulls technically don't plane at the speeds these type of boats sail at, the typical displacement hull speed calculations really only apply to hulls that have beam to length ratio below 1:6

Samin is right about the extra surface area of chined hulls not being the optimum solution.

Remember Yves Parlier tried a planning hull type Orma60 Cat which was less than spectacular.

 

My thoughts anyway.

[Guest]

Sam,

 

It would be a dog.

 

I dissagree sam, I think saying it would be a dog might be exagerating somewhat.

 

For sure it wouldn't be the most optimal hull shape , but I think that you would be surprised if someone actually built a racing version how well it might go.

 

And I would have also thought that hard chine plywood construction would fit right in with the 8.5 class rule intent ? to promote cost effective racing ?

 

hard chined tri fast

 

hard chined cat not fast

 

 

Sam, dont get me wrong, I am not saying it would be perfect.

 

 

you are correct, it would probably suffer in the light airs, with added wetted surface area. But every boat has strengths and weaknesses.

 

It might be an absolute weapon to windward in over 15 knots as well.

 

 

Attitudes "V" shapped hull doesn't seem to slow it down much.

 

 

dont think Piver or Gulf tiger when you think about this. Think about a modern hardchine design with proper boards / sails / rig.

 

 

But if a decent amount of thought went into it, I believe it could beat a GBE

 

 

are you saying GBEs are dogs ? thats not very nice

[Tim C 23]

My Viper 5m cat of 1993 had egg shaped hulls and was very flat underneath. It slammed upwind, but was very safe downwind, keeping the bows up well. When hull flying the hull should have sunk 100mm, but it maintained the same waterline, so it was planning to some degree.

I actually think a smart hard chine design, with a straight run aft would be a very interesting project. Yes slow in the very light, but potentially a weapon once moving

Perhaps the closest is Split Enz; the rocker was very flat rocker and well immersed transom. No one could say she was slow...

[Guest]

so I have been at home with a knee infection this afternoon....and cant stop thinking about what a chined cat could look like....

 

the mind boggles really....but it wouldnt have to look like a gulf tiger thats for sure!