rigger 47 Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Just an observation from last night in Auckland A number of yachts when heading up harbour had correct nav lights displayed and were very easy to pick out - even against shore side lights. Nice to see. Unfortunately there were a number that had incorrect lights displayed - tri colour with steaming light - tri colour and side lights and steaming lights on - no steaming light when clearly not sailing - no lights at all There were also a number with very weak lights showing. Not meaning to piss anyone off but can those that were out on the water last night check that their nav lights are up to it, or that the lamps have not burnt out, and check that they know what lights are meant to be displayed. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Or m/h and deck lights, so showing us red over red. Link to post Share on other sites
ex Elly 197 Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Perhaps the post race safety inspections could include a check for nav lights? (There were 2 boats disqualified in race one for failing the safety check.) Link to post Share on other sites
PaulR 3 Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Before the start, motoring on the starboard side of the channel past the container wharf in the fog, it was interesting to see the container ship with tugs attached comming in. The ships steaming lights are meant to be 5 miles?? Col Regs. from memory. The fog horn was very effective I only saw the ships steaming light on the bow mast about 200m away, when the ship's bow appeared out of the fog on our port beam. We had our lights on "in reduced visibility" but was surprised that the tugs did not have their nav sidelights or masthead towing lights on. Is this because they were attached by tow lines to the ship? and were in fact alongside the ship, ready to push her to rotate and back into the container wharf Further it was surprising that we only saw ONLY a few other yachts with their nav lights on in the thick fog from Princes to North Head area. So many were without lights, unlit, on the port side of the channel, past Navy & Devonport wharves. Not just the smallest yachts either. A lot of large yachts as well. Like wise during the race, some lights were pathetic, and others missing and/or badly placed and shielded over some of the sector(s). Those with LED's were great to easily see. Is the harbourmaster responsible for letting such unsafe boats with incorrect or missing lights on the harbour What's he paid for I have been actively opposed to registration and compulsory inspection for years preferring the education and minimal cost for owners approach. The concept of self reliance, independence, self policing lifestyle with guidence is far more acceptable than over-regulated policing, compulsory inspections, boat warrrant of fitnesses, and red tape, not to mention excessive governmental user pay fees and penalties, expensive overheads and over staffing. MSA, YNZ has a good history of practical Safety Regulations. Basically "C" grade sense or "C"ommon sense. The sailors who have developed these guidelines have all been experienced and generous with their time and efforts to try and help others. The YNZ Safety Regs only lacks IMHO the reason why each regulation was developed. e.g. Lifejackets for each person on board = Titanic 1,500 lives lost etc. Clipping on before comming on deck / after below = Mr XXX on yacht .... on dd/mm/yy swept overboard, or Fastnet yyyy or Sydney Hobart yyyy. Then we can know why the regulation was developed and hence accept or improve upon that standard. The parent's logic used to far many children of: "do that . . . because I said so" is not really helpful for thought and mental development. So WHY did so many NOT have their lights ON in the fog that obviously reduced visability How do we protect those who cannot realise and act upon the situation I am sure that if each skipper crew were asked, they will 99% at least know about nav lights, and when they should be on. Perhaps SSANZ needs to test all yachts, but why should this be forced upon SSANZ who all volunter their time and efforts Perhaps there needs to be inspections of boats that others consider have inadequate of poor nav lights. Reward those who dob others in I certainly do not want to be one of those. Perhaps the harbourmaster needs to get tough, but then this will become a right royal pain for generations to come. So apthy will reign and lets wait until several people are killed. One incident will not be enough. We will need a consistent series of accidents, collisions and lots of deaths to show a real need. I fear this will not be enough as even then the reports, recommendations will be delayed, slow to implement, public consultation, Iwi considerations, and many other events. I only hope I am not one of the sacrificial sailors. I'm happy to walk with anybody down any marina as I am sure we will find yachts with obscured, bad and missing lights. Perhaps a prize for the person who finds the greatest % number of faulty boats on their marina Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Concur a bit with Paul, some of the lights were shocking in position or strength and there were a few stealth boats out there. Knot sure about the fog and lights. We weren't even out of the Baywater channel and couldn't see land, so lights wouldn't have been that crash hot. Heard a big horn close by when we were off Devo wharf and couldn't see squat. A ferry came out of the fog, at quite a pace for the conditions we thought, and it surprised us it had a horn so grunty. Suddenly behind that a very dark patch of fog seemed to be moving up the harbour, a ship we suspect and probably the origin of the honker. Our steaming light went US so we sailed up to the marina entrance then did a runner in as there was a bit of activity on the water by others knot in the Simrad. Watched one yacht heading at us for a while and couldn't work out what appeared wrong with it all. The nav lights looked to be at spreader height on a masthead so the red we were seeing was only a reflection of a shiny headsail. Good lights but poorly positioned. A couple with lights that dim you had to look real hard to see them and a one or 2 just in total stealth mode. Also a couple with what looked to be lights pinched from Eden park, hell they were bright. One biggie fleet boat pasted close and we could read using it's stern light alone. Hate to think what that was doing to the batteries Link to post Share on other sites
PaulR 3 Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 PART C LIGHTS AND SHAPES Rule 20 Application (a) Rules in this part shall be complied with in all weathers. ( The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights as cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules or do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look-out. © The lights prescribed by these Rules shall, if carried, also be exhibited from sunrise to sunset in restricted visibility and may be exhibited in all other circumstances when it is deemed necessary. (d) The Rules concerning shapes shall be complied with by day. (e) The lights and shapes specified in these Rules shall comply with the provisions of Annex I to these Regulations. I just did a google search for International Collision Rules and it came up with http://www.reach.net/~stormy/marine/colregs/. Although the above is Canadian, it was the first in my google list. I have not compared these to NZ rules where there are small differences in wording, but the intent is similar. However other differences exist. http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5017010/Maritime-NZ-give-way-rules-challenged Enjoy Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Simple addition to the SI's is all, Any boat finishing after dark that is not showing the correct nav lights will be disqualified. DId anyone see our close encounter with the big blue ship between Gannet and Flat Rock? Link to post Share on other sites
PaulR 3 Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 So the Collision Rules = Lights on applies in restricted visibility. No yachts were racing => Collision Rules apply. The lights are for you to be SEEN, knot so you can see. Link to post Share on other sites
smithy09 50 Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Simple addition to the SI's is all, Any boat finishing after dark that is not showing the correct nav lights will be disqualified. DId anyone see our close encounter with the big blue ship between Gannet and Flat Rock? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 New Zealand Maritime Rules - Part 22 - Collision Prevention http://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/Rules/Rule-documents/Part22-maritime-rule.pdf Although it might sound good to DSQ boats for failing to display correct nav lights, the Colregs are law. The PC therefore doesn't have the authority, nor should they have to take responsibility for the implications of you breaking them. This said, if competitors could protest each other for displaying incorrect lights, racing sailors would quickly learn to display the right ones... Link to post Share on other sites
PaulR 3 Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Smithy: Did knot squid ask which bit of YOUR boat you wanted back undamaged Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Don't worry Smithy, no blue marks on the paint. We saw the guy some distance off and figured it would be close, watched him a while and even had the hand bearing compass on deck. At about 1/2 mile it wasn't obvious that we would pass ahead so put the boat beam on, pole forward and dump the kite sheet. Bear away once past his transom. He carried on as if he hadn't seen us. Cost us maybe 1 minute. Link to post Share on other sites
PaulR 3 Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Thanks Blackensign. As an example the difference in wording in our situation being discussed, for nav lights in restricted visibility is: Canadian = Sunrise to Sunset NZ = during the day International regulations may be different again, but I can't find my copy immediately. Are they the same Yes to some but possibly NO to others. How is "day" defined Sunrise & sunset are defined fairly precisely to the minute in Nautical Almanac Tables for any given Lat & Long. LINZ has downloadable tables for the major cities, every 10 days or so, and interpolation is involved, but with any error being within 5 minutes or so. Near enough for 99% of the time. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 New Zealand Maritime Rules - Part 22 - Collision Prevention http://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/Rules/Rule-documents/Part22-maritime-rule.pdf Although it might sound good to DSQ boats for failing to display correct nav lights, the Colregs are law. The PC therefore doesn't have the authority, nor should they have to take responsibility for the implications of you breaking them. This said, if competitors could protest each other for displaying incorrect lights, racing sailors would quickly learn to display the right ones... I think you'll find the racing rules say that come sunset ColRegs apply. So one could deduce from that that if a yacht in a race was knot displaying the correct lights as per the ColRegs they would also be breaking the Racing Rules which say they must comply with the CR's. So I can see a RC having the power, as the rules stand today, to DSQ anyone knot displaying what they should be. From memory maritime Sunset to Sunrise is just that, from official sunset to official sunrise, probably as stated by the local authority. I'd think that after 'official sunset', even though there is often still good light, if you didn't have your Nav lights on you'd be toast in a Court. And all don't forget the rules do actually say Sunset to Sunrise AND 'restricted visibility', which means fog, rain or even thick smoke. They also state minimum ranges, knot that that would have made much difference in this morning fog. We couldn't see a big ship mid stream when we were 50mts off Devo wharf, all we saw was a bit darker and what looked to be moving patch of fog. Link to post Share on other sites
rigger 47 Posted August 14, 2011 Author Share Posted August 14, 2011 PaulR - I'll pass your observation onto the right person. Link to post Share on other sites
Marshy 30 Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Don't worry Smithy, no blue marks on the paint. We saw the guy some distance off and figured it would be close, watched him a while and even had the hand bearing compass on deck. At about 1/2 mile it wasn't obvious that we would pass ahead so put the boat beam on, pole forward and dump the kite sheet. Bear away once past his transom. He carried on as if he hadn't seen us. Cost us maybe 1 minute. Cost you one minute, cost Smithy a spinnaker and mast package though aye Squid! Link to post Share on other sites
smithy09 50 Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Don't worry Smithy, no blue marks on the paint. We saw the guy some distance off and figured it would be close, watched him a while and even had the hand bearing compass on deck. At about 1/2 mile it wasn't obvious that we would pass ahead so put the boat beam on, pole forward and dump the kite sheet. Bear away once past his transom. He carried on as if he hadn't seen us. Cost us maybe 1 minute. Cost you one minute, cost Smithy a spinnaker and mast package though aye Squid! I guess that would be one way of getting a new carbon mast with raked back spreaders, and a new sail package.. Wouldn't like to test the water though... I see Kiwi smashed us even more this time.... I might have to go and ask Leslie for driving lessons.. Link to post Share on other sites
idlerboat 116 Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Unfortunately there were a number that had incorrect lights displayed- tri colour with steaming light - tri colour and side lights and steaming lights on - no steaming light when clearly not sailing - no lights at all Lets face it...these "rules" are there so that WE HELP...the other vessel to NOT RUN OVER US.... It really dosnt slow a racing boat down by A..having lights on...and B...showing the corrects ones. Them big boats...are really big !!... and my pet hate....especialy on small trailor sailors.... Your lights may have a heap of "complience numbers" attached to them but if they are as dim as a cigarette lighter at the end of a night race ..whats the point ? Bright lights ..done right...all night !! Cause with a tanker...you will lose the fight........ Link to post Share on other sites
PaulR 3 Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 PaulR - I'll pass your observation onto the right person. Found a picture if needed from a friend. Shows ship & forward tug at about 250m to 350m, both no lights OR both needing new bulbs. Link to post Share on other sites
Marshy 30 Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 Now that is sketchy... Link to post Share on other sites
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